Protesters, UCSB Argue Researchers’ Role in War Efforts

Who gave these "clowns" the right to disrupt and arbitrate what goes on in the name of research and teaching on campus? Why is their notion of research more important than someone else's idea? What are their qualifications to run a research institution?

If they are concerned about this issue. Let's have an organized debate and hear the issues in a civilized way. Let them bullhorn and push people around in a free speech area. Arrest them if they infringe on the rights of others.

This is the second time that I have heard about the incident of the individuals beings killed in a wedding party North of Kandahar in Afghanistan. In War bad stuff happens. Why is no one equally outraged at the acts of the important Al Qaeda individual who was the real target in that raid?

Our soldiers make errors. But the enemy shields itself in mosques and behind children. Just once and a while can you express anger at the outrages of Al Qaeda?

I find the remote explosion of unknowing handicapped women and persons in wheelchairs in amongst public crowds in Iraq sufficiently abhorrent to want our soldiers to remain in Iraq for example.

Get real.

DonJose,

So this is your war in Iraq you want to defend?
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries...

Wrench...good afternoon. The Iraq war is perhaps not the subject of the above article. The subject seems to me to concern the right of open research at the University and some disruptive 'holier than thou' protesters. I've lived through the chants of "On strike, Shut it down."...it's a mistake. Just have a civil debate about the issues that concerns all the parties. No one should bring any pies to the debate either.

Happy to defend it. Not too sure what your photos (cliches) have to do with these various wars but please understand that my son has devotedly spent two tours in Iraq and one tour in Afghanistan right after 9/11. This family experience has kind of focused my attention on what is happening. You offered me a document. I offer you one. This is a good report on what's happening in Afghanistan to our own 173rd Airborne in a single valley loaded with problems. How would you solve this problem? My son is currently dealing with these returning soldiers--some of them from Santa Barbara.

Here's the story. I don't think you'll regret reading it. Try to get a little more respectful of our soldiers Wrench.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazi...

Wrench: Since we were once a Spanish City and I, Santa Barbara's patriarch, I propose in the context of this conversation, that you ponder this view of what these awful Jihadis did to Madrid in my homeland.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...

I'm disturbed to hear that you find just-released pictures of human beings at their most vile and murderous 'cliche'.

I am not downplaying the horror of taking innocent life, as many religious fundamentalists seem to do (what you call terrorism... but terrorism creates an arbitrary distinction between the taking of innocent life in small numbers, as through the suicide bombings of religious fundamentalists, and the mass killing that occurs whenever the United States military drops bombs in cities full of people.)

I do believe that the United States is doing exactly what is necessary to create the intense, widespread hatred and desperation that religious fundamentalists require to recruit and carry out their own atrocities.

If we did not starve hundreds of thousands with sanctions, and drop bombs into crowded cities, and abduct and torture and occupy foreign lands, how would hateful religious fundamentalists convince others to join them?

The United States is making the world safe for terrorism. In the meantime, our corporate masters are making fortunes off of the growing insecurity (ours especially). Every bomb breeds a thousand more hearts full of hate.

Iraq was not a hotbed for religious terrorism before this war began. The religious fundamentalists opposed Hussein's dictatorship, and he imprisoned or killed them. Now, the United States has deposed a dictator that it supported (and supplied with weaponry even as he killed thousands) for decades, and created the perfect recruiting and training ground for the religious hate groups that could not previously gain a footing in the country.

The war was not intended to end 'terrorism', something that can not end through war, something that is very much a part of the United States military effort. Most of us have realized this. This is a war for profit and control, the two major goals of governments past and present.

The researchers collaborating with the military are aiding the U.S. military in it's attempts to use widespread violence to gain power and control, whether they're trying to improve the killing power of that violence, or make it more sustainable defensively.

The whining of these military collaborators is nothing to the pain and wholesale destruction and exploitation of the Iraqi people.

Your strawman is poorly thought out at best, but probably an absolute lie. Those against this war simply extend their criticism of the murder of innocents to 'our' side as well.

The underlying problem is that war and peace are in the hands of a venal government (both executive and legislative branches) who are on the take from war-profiteering corporations and the Israel lobby. Our professional corps of politicians don't work for us, the people. This gives a distinct degree of validity to direct action on the part of protestors. Consider that the Boston Tea Party was executed after the Brits put a tiny tax on discounted surplus tea... Americans were paying much less for it, but the principle mattered more. Isn't it great to see that a precious few Americans still uphold principles?

But having said that, let's also hear it for the naive idealists who enlisted to fight our 9/11 attackers and ended up in Iraq instead, whether they've seen through the scam or not. Their sacrifices are nobler than most of us can comprehend. Brave idealists are exactly who we need defending us. More is the shame of the corporatist Bush gang and the Israel-firsters who diverted our soldiers to Iraq. Up against the wall, chicken hawks and unpatriotic tribalists! And to Don Jose: our coalition of the willing, including Spain, were mainly willing to grab a piece of Iraq's oil industry.

Populism and pacifism march ever onward. Are they the cause of war? Or is it something else? You decide.

No new arguments presented here about the Iraq war. Heard all these things you mention before.

Wrench: 'Cliche' means photograph in French.

I'm for a well-prepared military, open research, and especially fighting over there--rather than here. You contend we are idealistic dupes at best, but I am also a believer in the second mission of the military too, the "carrot rather than the stick" military, which you can read about in the articles I posted.

Who knows if some of the research at UCSB might not augment the powers of the "peace keeper and disaster assistance" function of the US Military?

Comparing the clowns at UCSB to the Boston Tea Party is a good example of the co-opting talents of our local pro-jihadis idealists. Arlington West is the greatest display of this co-opting methodology. A pure disgrace.

By the way, the sanctions that "starved hundreds of thousands" were imposed on Iraq by the UN, not the United States.

For what it's worth, I'll add my 2 cents worth.
I don't see how a country such as the U.S., which from what I see went from a family-oriented PG-rated culture to a culture which now worships drug-addicted celebrities and gangsta-rappers and the "Girl Gone Wild" scene is going to make a big hit with people in the middle-east who unlike most Americans, take their religion seriously.

While Westerners argue about the Christian/Muslim polemic, and history bears that out, a huge contributing factor for Muslim animosity toward Western culture is the decadence they see. I am not defending the Muslim way of doing things as I happen to like freedom, but when the U.S. ignores the advice of its past leaders such as George Washington ("Beware of Foreign entanglements") and Dwight Eisenhower who warned us of the excesses of the Military Industrial complex, combined with the ever-decaying nature of our society, it's going to be volatile.

I agree with Adonis Tate when he speaks of naïve idealists, and as long as America continues its dual combination of it's hedonism (To Wit: the excesses of liberalism) and intervention (The excesses of Right Wingers) this combination will only bring more sorrow to our shores.

http://kingjbible.com/micah/3.htm

Good afternoon Mr. Clausen! Decadence is certainly in the eye of the beholder!

Personally the Muslim culture's treatment of women, slavery or death for infidels, forced clitoral removals for pubescent girls, as well as the various judicial punishments like hand, foot, and ear amputation in Sharia law, might be something you'd throw into the balance over on one side, up against the western decadence you see--if you have a chance to weigh them in your balance.

I sometimes think of populism and pacifism as decadence.

Let's see now, you're proposing we were attacked on 9/11 because we're disgustingly hedonistic, that's it?

Menstrual Blood and Pork drives 'em wild too. Now your proposing I take it, that jeweled bellybuttons and cleverly placed tatoos are causes of war.

I don't want to make Arab Culture, into American Culture. But there are better ways of governing than "off with their heads" don't you think? The whole world has got to figure this out.

I also think you'll find that as far as 'taking religion seriously' goes, that it seems to me the USA has got lots of religion and plenty of people who feel very serious about it. Maybe too much. I don't think that's a problem. Don't know what church you go to but do let us know!!

If you want to debate about the wisdom of George Washington, Ike, or John Quincy Adams (the favorite of Gore Vidal), I'll take you up on it!

Somebody is naive perhaps. But I don't think it's the soldiers!

Adonis_Tate hassles army and marine recruiters and would rather leave the country defenseless. He's a proponent of that disgusting "Arlington West." He fraudulently takes donation money down there.
But let the reader decide!

I hasten to point out, you said nothing about research at the University, and its presumed connection to the evil military.

Thanks for the little Bible lesson.

DonJosedelaGuerra: I will admit I haven't been to a church meeting for years. My congress with other Christians is through informal social contact.

As for Muslim culture, I already covered how I feel per how they do things.
When I said the Muslims "take their religion seriously", what I meant was they see any outside influence as a threat to it and that our culture is the opposite of what they believe. In short, I think BOTH cultures are at extremes. It's too easy to take an "us vs. them" approach which simplistically says that one must be wrong and the other right. It's like married couples who divorce: Often times BOTH of them are wrong.

Per your assertion that plenty of people in America take religion seriously, I don't know where you get that. Take a look at popular culture 50 years ago and look at it today and see the difference. Now of course, you can argue that worshipping Britney's underwear is a religion, but of course I'm talking about a not so user-friendly religion that calls upon us to excercise personal restraint. When you consider how children are being raised today, the rampant out-of-wedlock birth rates, the "baby-daddy" concept replacing the idea of two people actually committing to one another, and the overall lack of people standing up for what they know to be right, I would hardly say we are a religious society. No Don, voting Republican and supporting the war does not make a person or culture religious any more than attending church--it's a state of mind.

The effects this societal attitude change can be seen everywhere: Road Rage, schoolyard shootings, meth addiction, and an overall lack of civility--much of which can be seen in the blogesphere. Even if you do not believe in God, one can argue from a secular anthropological viewpoint that while some positive advances have occurred in our country since the 60's, the overall picture has been getting worse, and passing more anti-drug laws, or anti-gun laws isn't going to solve the problem.

As for debating you on Washington, Adams, or other politicians, why do you even bring this up? All I did what quote Washington and Ike and I never said that I know more about them than you do, and I'm guessing you probably know more about them than I.

As for the United States I am VERY grateful that I live in a place with running water, toilets that flush, good hospitals, building and safety codes, and all the other aspects of Western life that can easily be taken for granted. That having been said, I also see things that are happening that concern me, and I guess I'm one of those few people who is opposed to what I perceive as decadence, and at the same time, hawkish imperialism, so I manage to offend people on both the left and the right.

All of this having been said, do you think we have more freedom now, than we did in decades past?

By the way Don: My reference to anti-gun and anti-drug laws does not reflect anything you've written--and I don't know where you stand on these anyway so this doesn't reflect on you one way or the other. I was directing my comment at our politicians. I was making the point that our society overall would rather take a quick-fix approach to our problems by passing more and more restrictive laws, as opposed to asking themselves WHY these problems are occurring.

"I hasten to point out, you said nothing about research at the University, and its presumed connection to the evil military."

I didn't see where that was relevent, and since I have no ties to the University, why would I.

"Thanks for the little Bible lesson."
No problem. I figure as long as it's still legal for me to quote the Bible, I might as well.

Well, Mr. Clausen, good evening to you. I remember you from the days of Tom Rogers.

I am happy to report (or sad) that I think we probably share certain notions of the decline of Culture, ...people aren't reading as much, students don't seem to know the old cultural landmarks like George Washington, John Quincy Adams or Ike, and few indeed will know Washington's "Farewell Address" or Ike's warning about the military industrial complex. You and I know what those subjects are--but alas many won't. I regret that with you. They seem to all know who Martin Luther King is however.

I think you have a false nostalgia about the good old days and religion though. Lots of religion around today and plenty of people are very intense. There's a whole segment of young people who know only the Bible because that's where they think "THE TRUTH" is and that's where they go to figure things out. They are very fervent.

But I don't want to be some ol' fogey who gripes about the present generation. They undoubtedly know lots of stuff about things of which I know very little. I will take a line from Dickens "Tale of Two Cities" to generalize on the state of things, and say: It is: "The best of times, the worst of times"...that's what we're are always living.

The situation never changes.

Personally, on the matters above, I listen to the soldiers, my son, his battle buddies here in Santa Barbara, and those to whom I open my heart to in airports when I approach them as I see them and go up and thank them for their service and ask how's it going?...I've heard a lot about Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm only writing here today, because I find the attitude of these protesters at UCSB a very ugly thing.

I'd like to take up Martha Saddler's question about technology and what good it is. That would be worth talking about.

WTFudge?

"Adonis_Tate hassles army and marine recruiters and would rather leave the country defenseless. He's a proponent of that disgusting "Arlington West." He fraudulently takes donation money down there.
But let the reader decide!"

I have never hassled a recruiter, advocated defenseless, or even visited Arlington West, much less taken fraudulent or any other kind of money down there. Where does this passle of allegations come from??? I'd really like to hear a plausible case for a misidentification of persons, because the alternative is shameless slander.

My basic outlook is that we could have peace with the Muslims if we weren't raiding their oilfields or lavishing an ungrateful Israel with weapons and mega-bucks. What I said in my earlier comment was that our military is heroic, but it's being misused, entiende? Something tells me that "delaGuerra" (i.e., of the war) is a meaningful pseudonym, but I won't go further in presuming to characterize him.

"Well, Mr. Clausen, good evening to you. I remember you from the days of Tom Rogers."

I don't remember you, but then again, I don't know who you are. Please elaborate either on this blog or write me if we know each other.

I am not saying all was well in the days of old, but since it sounds as though you're at least my age (46) then you remember when the social problems that are so common today were an anomaly. When standards go out, and when we live in a culture that celebrates immorality, we're up the creek. (One example of this is when Tom Cruise callously dumped Nicole Kidman and took up with Katie Holmes. Think of how he hurt Nicole and their kids, yet people celebrate the fact that he's got a whole new family)

I don't know if you read what I wrote on the other blog about the U.C.S.B. protesters, but I was very clear that I did not like the way they behaved. I also pointed out that I felt those kids were probably more interested in blowing off some adrenaline than actually articulating a point. Eating the food in the buffet as they did shows their lack of tact.

When our soldiers went to Vietnam they thought they were going into a war to win. We all know that didn't happen. Those men were treated like dirt when they returned here. When I say the soldiers today are naïve, I say this because once again were are in a situation that seems to have no end. It's been years since "official hostilies" has ended, yet here they are, getting shot up. It also bothers me that they come back with all these weird illnesses.

Maybe I'm cynical, but the Vietnam experience still lingers, as we see with 1/3 of the homeless people being Vietman vets.

This country can do better.

Adonis_Tate: Speaking of misidentification! Good day to you.

Don Jose de la Guerra y Noriega was the long lived Spanish patriarch of this community up into the 1840s who built the Casa de la Guerra on Plaza de la Guerra on De la Guerra street.

His ancestors in Spain got the name long, long ago, for fighting off Muslim invaders of Christian Spain.

Why bash Israel? They have a right to be there. And firing random rockets at Israelis communities is kind of unfriendly, especially after the Israelis evacuated Gaza, tore down colonies, and gave the place back to the Palestinians, it seems a "De la Guerra" gesture to me.

It'd be nice if Israel and Palestine got it together.

Good morning Bill Clausen: The problem with the Vietnam Veterans is that the country didn't respect them when they were fighting or when they came back, to our everlasting disgrace. It certainly revealed as well, the problem with a draft army. Today, soldiers are serving because, by in large, they want to serve. Our job is to stand on the watchtower and keep this anti-military rudeness at bay.

I never think about Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, or any other of the crap in the "PEOPLE" part of the magazine, cyber space, and television universe.

I think I'll make a comment in the spirit of Martha Saddler's question: "Technology what good is it?"...

Let's consider the case of S. F. B. Morse's Telegraph. Morse, an excellent painter and artist unable to make a living in his chosen trade in the good ol' USA, turned his talents to invention and research, finding some details he needed here, some others there, until he finally figured out a way for us to communicate instantaneously over long distances. Joseph Henry's government research was a key discovery that helped Morse. The first users of the marvel, tapped out in code: "Look what God hath Wrought!"
Should this sort of work be stopped by uninformed students who refuse to let the military and the government carry on possibly militarily useful research? Will the Luddites of UCSB stop the next telegraph?

Napoleon had his own Telegraph Chappe!

DonJosedelaGuerra: You still have not answered my question about knowing me from the days of Tom Rogers. (Whatever THAT means)

You also have not backed up your allegations against Adonis Tate hassling army and marine recruiters.

Failure to back up these claims discredits you. .

Mr. Clausen: Good afternoon. My apologies if I have made a mistake in my identifications.

I felt Adonis_Tate was Lane Anderson from Veterans for Peace. He had written a letter to the editor recently with that riff about the Boston Tea Party. If I'm wrong--both of you deserve my apology and I hope you will accept it.

Mr Clausen I have been seeing your writing quite a bit here and there and assumed you were the Mr. Clausen who helped Democrats in the community and who was especially helpful to our long lost dearly loved supervisor and former city council member Tom Rogers--the former golden boy of Santa Barbara politics.

If I have blundered in my identifications, again my sincere apologies. I am an idiot for jumping to conclusions. Cyberspace is not visible space. I too, of course, am someone other than Don Jose. These are the foibles of cybertalk.

Nevertheless, most of the ideas we've shared about the notions engendered by the article in the Independent and the issues raised remain the same.

Apology accepted. As for the Mr. Clausen you refer, I don't know who he is and he is not related to me.

I hope all of you - and everyone - interested in the side actions in Iraq (Abu Ghraib), Afghanistan (Bagram) and Gitmo will go to the Plaza de Oro and see TAXI TO THE DARK SIDE that won an Oscar Best Documentary.

It's stunning and on a first run here. We all should know what is being done in our names, not just the heroism of soldiers but some of the less heroic stuff.......

The protesters should be applauded for at least two things:

1) Following their (collective) conscience, and standing up for something in which they believe.

2) Protesting in a forceful, yet non-violent manner.

It is not a question of whether they are "qualified" to direct research, but that they voiced their group opinion on the subject. The action also should not be judged on it's effectiveness, as even though the protest will probably not amount to much. They have overlooked the facts that they cannot stop evolving technologies, and that the products of such growth are merely tools, the good or evil of which may only be determined by their use. [The hand normally open in peace, may also be used to grab, slap, or chop. The closed fist may also provide protection of it's contents.]

__________________________________________
Regarding soldiers, Iraq, and Viet Nam:

The returning vets from Viet Nam received a harsh homecoming, because once the idea of "halting the spread of communism" paled, and the atrocities of battle were placed on the television sets of America, the blame which should have fallen on government and military policies instead was turned on the soldiers. It's the flip now, where soldiers are celebrated *in spite* of their personal involvement in the atrocious policies of the administration.

Also, Arlington West is a tribute, which has unavoidably become something of a protest as well. DonJose considers Arlington West, which is an acknowledgement of the sacrifice of our soldiers, a disgrace, while I submit that the administration's failure to acknowledge such is the true disgrace (by covering up the shipping of corpses back from Iraq--for "national security reasons", no less).