Warrior’s Cry

Save the Warrior imagery!!

Bigoted racist stereotypes forever!!!!

But seriously, this is an ideal lesson for these ethnically homogeneous Carpinterians about what American democracy is all about with the "Tyranny of the Majority" that our Constitutional Framers described.

Short explanation: might does not make right.

In response to FirstDistrictStreetfighter:

You throw inflammatory words around pretty well. However, you use them out of context in order to try to make an irrational point. I suggest that you try again, but think it through more thoroughly first.

"Homogenous" isn't an imflammatory word, but choosing to use it to describe Carpinterians begs this question: Have you never been to Carpinteria or are you just ignorant? Carpinteria is a multi-cultural, mulit-ethnic, multi-socioeconomic small city. A majority has risen lately to challenge the recent atrocity that was just voted in by the CUSD board - as any thinking society should.

Ben Franklin, a framer of the Constitution once said, "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

So a school district would give in to the misplaced discontentment of a few people, aggravate others who from the same ethnicity who have the opposite view in addition to the masses, and bury the tradition of a community to avoid hurt feelings and an implied lawsuit? BS! This will only open the door for more whiners with more flimsy thin-skinned complaints to take away more liberties.

If you haven't noticed, this era of hyper-tolerance is already taking us down the path that Franklin warned.

Well, "CommonSense" I suppose that a little bigotry and intolerance is okay then.

Changing a school mascot name to something else that is not an ethnic insult is now an "atrocity"?

How would the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Carpinteria react if the mascot name were the "Fighting Latinos" or the "Zapatistas" instead?

California is sadly behind most of the rest of the country on this issue. And only in America could we continue to bury our heads in the sand while cheering on professional sports teams like the redskins and the braves and claim that tomahawk chants and the "kill the redskins" cries are all in the spirit of "honoring" native tribes.

However, the real irony is that while the school board voted "to remove all Native American images and icons from school property" apparently that same rule doesn't apply to the CUSD logo which can be seen here, complete with it's caricaturish cigar-store Indian head on the top:

http://www.cusd.net/images/stories/Sites...

"Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

"misplaced discontentment of a few people" Tell us Defender, how is it misplaced? You don't think they know why they're angry?

The only reason so many people don't understand the insult is because it is so prevelent in our society. DarkMarkSun can use racial epiphets to describe Native Americans (and sports teams) and I bet nobody blinks an eye, but if anyone on here did the equivalent with an African American epiphet all hell would break loose.

Would this even be a question if the mascott was African? How about Latino?

I have asked this of others when discussing this issue: why is it that folks only see racism or bigotry when it is directed at Black folk?

If the name were kept as 'Warriors' but had stereotyped and exaggerated African features, and a family complained, would there be as many defenders?

Latinos (especially these days), Asians and Native Americans, as well as other groups, are called PC-junkies, hyper-sensitive, and word-police. Listening to such remarks as 'CommonSense', you begin to think that the American people in general will only accept accusations of racism directed at African Americans, while all others just need to toughen up a bit.

In any case, as happened with the Seminoles of Florida State, perhaps some consultation ought to be in order.

And on another note, I wish these students and alumni would get this excited about something that mattered. Pick your issue: environmental protection, youth violence, urban planning, alternative energy sources, healthcare, foreign policy, civil liberties... the list goes on and on. But to choose something as inconsequential and, in the grand scheme of things, as meaningless as a school logo is stretching the outrage and passion a bit too far, isn't it?

-David Esparza Jr

To directly address CommonSense:

A logo or icon of a high school has nothing to do with liberty, and changing it nothing to do with security. It is not a matter of free speech, but part of an organized government entity and activities. You want a logo for a school, then be prepared to have students saying and wearing clothes that show some questionable material-- even if you don't like it.

Also, you used the phrase 'hyper-tolerance'. Tolerance means, in spirit, understanding and by definition, that you accept things and allow them to happen-- even things with which you disagree. Tolerance would have dictated that the family at the origin of the complaint would have accepted the logo, but stated their disagreement anyway. Please, don't use phrases you hear on the talk shows because it sounds good. And if you didn't recycle some talk show memo, just try to use English words correctly-- I make mistakes too.

-David Esparza Jr

To RobbyR:

In the context of American society, Dons, Gauchos and Vaqueros do not have a general meaning that applies to one specific subset. That is, most Americans don't know which country or ethnicity to which each of those names apply. Therefore, they don't have the cultural significance and ability to stereotype or make a mocking caricature of Latinos in general, or Mexicans and Argentinians specifically. Your comparisons to Native American imagery and culture, in the context of American Society, are unequal and invalid.

As for the Fighting Irish, there is one explanation found on the Notre Dame website (http://archives.nd.edu/carey/carey.htm) that relates the Catholic faith to Irish immigrants, and how, the article says, the two were used interchangeably from colonial times. For Notre Dame to be associated with the Irish, from that reasoning, is not as arbitrary or with Carp High's images.

More to that, it is only the athletic teams that are nicknamed 'Fighting Irish'. The university has its own seal, a 'N' and 'D' used as an unofficial logo, no nickname, and its website does not boast anything related to 'Fighting Irish' until you get to the Athletics pages. See, www.nd.edu

Contrast that with Carp High: the website URL is 'warriorcountry.com', displays the arrow and feathers as well as the warrior name prominently, and is the official logo of not just the athletic teams but of the school itself.

There is, indeed and yet again, a difference in what you choose to compare. There is always more to it, and a surface-level examination, even when it sounds good or has a certain rhythm to the words, doesn't make it accurate.

-David Esparza Jr

Tolerance, no matter what the cost, is the talk of fools. Sure, we should be as tolerant as we can possibly be until being tolerant becomes absurd. Where's the line? I don't know, but CUSD crossed it.

The whole "Warrior" idea doesn't tie directly to the Chumash tribe. They weren't warriors, but peaceful fishermen and hunter-gatherers. It seems that today's laid-back SB-area mindset goes back to their day as well. As near as we can tell, the imagery isn't connected to any single tribe. It supports the warrior sports ideal to fight with intensity and the determination to win, which is loosely tied to the country's Native American history.

The Vikings were also a tough crowd, brutal in fact. How many high school's use the Viking name and imagery? The associated imagery is specific to nothern scandinavians. However, the imagery merely supports the same ideas in sports that the Warrior imagery supports. With all of this said, I've never heard of any overly senstitive scandinavians making the same complaints as Elias and his family. Why is that?

StreetFighter, I sort of like the name the "Fighting Latinos," but I don't think that they'd have it, vato.

Esparza, if you can't apply Franklin's words here, do you have the ability of abstract thought at all? Y'know, aside from opposing thumbs, it's another big thing that makes our species unique.

Do any nay-sayers of you live in Carp? Were any of you Warriors?

CommonSense:

Indeed I do have the ability to think in the abstract. But you are saying that the logo is a liberty as others have said flying on a commercial airliner or owning a mini-van is a liberty. Those are not liberties-- those are consumer options.

Liberties is the short-hand form of the concept of 'civil liberties' and unfortunately folks too often confuse this with 'doing whatever and buying whatever and maintaining my own comfortable status quo.' Franklin was not speaking of anything but civil liberty.

And what security arises from changing the logo? Does that protect us, the family? Is there a threat to civil liberties by changing one offending logo? Or is it just that many folks, because it is something they consider to be their own, simply don't like change-- if even to right a wrong?

Oh, and I'm sure the family didn't complain about Vikings because, after all, they aren't Scandinavian.

On tolerance: Again, tolerance is about accepting things with which you disagree. Tolerance would dictate that the family disagreed with the logo but requested no change in the same logo. Tolerance, which you continue to misunderstand, would have kept the logo in place. Do you understand that? Do you understand that tolerance would have helped you in this instance, because the family would have decided to tolerate an apparent offense?

I like that you ask if any of us were 'Warriors', thinking that the only way we would understand is by having been a Carp Resident or Carp graduate. Using your line of thinking, I would ask: are you Native American?

But I've never liked that reasoning, anyway. I don't have to walk on the sun to know it might be hot, or be homeless on a bench to know such a life is not leaving little to be desired.

What I continue to see are folks who are not Native American, who are not students of, experts on, or immersed in Native American culture, as it exists today, defend this logo. That I only see these non-, non-, non-, non- folks defending it bothers me and precludes me from defending the logo.

Why?

Because it reminds me of a documentary in which a white gentleman from Corbin, Kentucky (home of Kentucky Fried Chicken) named his dog 'N**ger'-- and defended it because the dog was black in color, but also, as he said, loyal, obedient, and strong. He had nothing but praise for his choice of name and the dog.

Tell me, honestly, with your ability to think in the abstract, if an outsider's patronizing praise is really all that matters when concerning a symbolic racial offense?

-David Esparza Jr

I agree with D of common sense.

If I wanted to dwell on it I could find something offensive about a Don, a Gaucho, a Vaquero, a Royal or a Trojan. But I don't. I just sit at home and pass judgement on all of those that find offense at the word, "Warrior". Those people are nuts.

I am a former Warrior and I have to say reading about this whole thing makes me upset. Now I am all about listening to concerns and opinions of others (meaning the child and family who feel offended) but does anyone think that the school board was wrong to make this decision without listening to the input of current/past students or the community? If there had been an open discussion with all sides of the equation voicing their opinions, perhaps this might sit differently for those who are protesting the change. There is an immense amount of tradition that comes with the Warrior name and imagery. I am someone who does not know my heritage (being adopted) so it is my experiences from my past that help me piece together my identity. I am a Warrior. Just like I am a Bruin and a past Carpinterian.

Also, I wanted to comment on what David said about wishing these students/people would "get excited about something that mattered". I guess I see it differently. This DOES matter to these students. It matters to the alumni as well as a large part of the community. How can anyone say that something we feel so passionately about is not important? I actually applaud the students. They have organized themselves and they are fighting for a cause they believe in. Today it is their Warrior, tomorrow it could be any number of the "things that matter" that David listed like, foreign policy, youth violence, alternative energy, etc.

Femmesavante--

Passion is not in question. But passion, in and of itself, does not equal importance. There are many people who are passionate about many things of which there is little significance. What is more accurate is to say that children don't like to have things taken away.

These students don't feel passion and pride for the 'Warrior' spirit-- that is a bunch of bull. They would do the same for any high school and any logo. Students at Santa Barbara High would do the same, and spout claims of honor to 'be a Don', about the legacy and history.

Folks did not show this passion, waving flags, attending rallies en masse, coordinating alumni on an equal scale... before this issue came up. Passion does not exhibit itself only when there is a battle to wage. Do you only declare your love, with such emotion, for another when the other is considering divorce, a breakup, or is dying? Passion is "living, breathing, and doing" all things for whatever it is that stokes your flames. If not, you're relationship is altogether boring.

This passion didn't exist before, and the only reason anyone has these feelings for the Native American Warrior is because they happened to live in Carpinteria. I happened to live in Santa Barbara and went to SBHS, but it had nothing to do with living and breathing olive and gold, to experience life as a 'Don'. It was only because that was the closest high school and it happened to be where my friends were going. A matter of circumstance.

The outrage is fake. It is not true. It is feigned simply because they feel something is being taken away. High school students talk of protest all the time-- every time there is a tightening of the dress code, further limits on leaving campus, change in school hours. These kids are whining as a 5 year old would who has been told it's time for bed-- 'no fair' they say.

As I said elsewhere, there are more Honda logos in Carp than Warrior bumper stickers. The heart and soul is whatever the name of the high school is-- because it is the only high school there. They would argue over any logo, any nickname, anything having to do with the only school they have. It is less a desire 'in favor of' something than it is being pissed off because they are having something taken away. The symbolism of the logo and Native American imagery means crap to Carp students. They didn't speak s--t of what they say now on the day before this decision about passion and the rest.

Feigned outrage. Nothing more.

-David Esparza Jr

Confederate flag.

People feel a connection to it, as a representation of culture, history, and 'who they are'.

But fish don't see water. Folks in support of this are those fish who don't see the offensive nature of making Native Americans into one dimensional fighters-- a caricature of a race instead of acknowledging the full humanity and culture of Native Americans. Folks who are not Native American can't see the offense. but it is not their job to do so. You don't have to understand the offense and feel offense yourself in order to know that something is offensive. But like the fish not seeing water, non-Native American people have a hard time seeing the racism and offensive nature of some of their own icons.

And, as folks keep forgetting-- no one cares about the name "Warrior'. Rather, it is the Native American symbols.

-David Esparza Jr

David,

I can agree with you that some of the students are probably joining in the rallies, walkouts and protests merely for the attention or just to be a part of the commotion. Believe me, I know all about that being a former UCLA student. Students would join in protests there just to have a "good" excuse to skip class, regardless of their feelings on the subject of protest. However, I have to draw the line at the many, many alumni and locals who have joined in the protest. At this point, there is an online petition to save the Warrior head and it has nearly 2000 signatures from people of all ages. The prerequisite to sign is that you are past, present or future CHS alumni, or Carp resident. I have seen many prominent, intelligent community figures' names on the petition and in my opinion, they are NOT just spoiled brats who are mad because they are having something taken away from them. I think it comes down to the fact that there really ISN'T a clear cut answer here - there is no "law" or guideline that can clear it all up.

As for the head, and imagery - I think it in itself stands for pride and tradition. Have you seen the Warrior head? I always thought it was majestic and regal. At UCLA there is the Bruin in the middle of campus, and I only bring it up because it is an image that the students and faculty felt very proud - even protective of. I feel a large percentage of the students, faculty and community feels this way regarding the Warrior head. We also have a mural at the school designed and created by a former student, and I can tell you it is a truly breathtaking work of art. I am just trying to make the point that the images used by CHS really could be up to an individual's interpretation. While some may see it as offensive, others may not. I know there are Native Americans on both sides of this debate, btw.

I still feel this was somewhat of a rash decision on the part of the board. Obviously, there are a lot of strong feelings in both camps and I think, to make a decision after one meeting of general discussion was not the best idea.

You also mentioned that people are forgetting that the board agreed to keep the name Warriors. Well, I honestly believe if the Native American symbol must be removed, it will be a matter of time before the name is changed as well.

I realize in the grand scheme of things this may not seem to be such a big deal. I realize that there are things in life much more dire than this, however, this subject has us both turning to our computers in order to state our opinions, so one might say it has SOME merit, true?

--femmesavante

Femmesavante--

First, I wish this were done face to face because so far you're one of the few on the opposite side of my opinion who can have a conversation that is thoughtful and considerate.

Second, I wish there weren't a 3000 character limit on here so I could spew even more hot air (joke!).

I'm sure people are getting worked up over this, but such outrage really has no tie to the supposed meaning. This emotion, and the excuses and arguments stemming from it, is less about preserving the honor and dignity of the logo and icon and more about, even as you suggest with your words about a lack of public comment, someone else taking it from them.

The achievements of the student-athletes, the academic success of the entire student population, the artistic merits of the individual projects... these ought to be celebrated. But these are not the 'Indian Warrior' that is at the heart of the issue. These are accomplishments of the students and faculty, of parents and community members, teachers and administrators. These accomplishments, which generate the pride these folks feel about Carp High, have NOTHING to do with the icon. It could be any logo and any icon-- the accomplishments of individuals and groups will not change because of the name (if that were so, only certain names would be chosen for mascots, and for children). We ought to tell people that the icon had nothing to do with it-- it is not some magical, fantastic artifact that endows people with success and pride.

And again, Southern folks will say that the Confederate flag is not about slavery and racism but about the honor of soldiers who fought bravely. As we do for soldiers now, they do for soldiers past-- honor the soldier regardless of the political reasons for the war.

Unfortunately, the symbols some use to exhibit pride can also be offensive to specific groups.

The 'Indian Warrior' imagery reduces Native American cultures to a single dimension-- reducing their humanity to a caricature, and that is offensive. When folks say "I like Mexicans because they are hard workers" I am offended. It is belittling in the way it disregards all other aspects of an ethnic identity, and it forces an entire segment of the population into a ridiculous caricature. That is very offensive. The comments about the 'Noble Indian Warrior', in my view, are just as offensive.

And for me, it isnt the issue itself-- its that some have taken up this issue as though it were the crucial to the survival of the Republic, as though lives were endangered. Get a grip, grow up, and pull your collective heads out of your asses is what I feel like saying. But Im a nicer person than that.

Cheers all the same! And thank goodness the issue doesn't affect the respect people have for each other-- debates are just debates and it doesn't mean we hate each other! Good times... good times.

-David Esparza Jr

David,

I agree, I was thinking the same thing about wishing we could debate face to face, because I really do LOVE a good debate - especially when my opponent puts up a great defense (or offense). Oh, this is coming in THREE PARTS! LOL

As I read your comments over, I find myself agreeing with much of what you say. It COULD be any icon or name and the achievements would be the same. I am not so ignorant to think that a name or image is what makes the students excel or the athletics victorious.

I think what we disagree on is how important the name and image IS to the community. I also think that they would agree that this not a crucial, life-threatening cause, but that it is a big deal in and for the community of Carp. Like I said before, there are many prominent, well-respected community leaders who are behind keeping the head. Now I don't know the personal politics or views of each of these people, but I would dare say this is the most important "fight" on their agenda. I would not be surprised to see many of them as great financial and vocal proponents to any of the presidential candidates, alternative energy, or some other crucial issue. This happens to be an issue in their small community, so they are doing what they deem necessary to have their voices heard in this arena.

While the students may have started much of the protesting, many older alumni have joined in and taken over. They are now protesting peacefully, by obtaining permits as well as making efforts so they do not clash with the "peace marchers". Though there is outrage, in my opinion, it is hard to argue with one, their right to voice their opinions, and two, the fact that this is anything less than a social/government studies lesson for the kids who can experience the "right" way to go about change. Oh, and fwiw, I think many protests that make national news, are ridiculous, but I suppose that is because I don't necessarily agree with them!

Getting back to the importance of the Warrior name and head to the community. I believe earlier in this discussion (before I was involved) you argued that you did not have to be a Carpinterian to relate to this story and while I am sure there are those who could, I think it IS a special circumstance. I read that you were a Don. I'm not sure how long ago you attended, but I can tell you growing up in Carp, it was very much a small town community. When I went to CHS, I think the student tally reached somewhere near 700. We were a tight knit school. One thing that united us was being Warriors. When my brothers were Warriors, I looked forward to the day that I could wear the red and white proudly. Also, as you mentioned, CHS is the only (public) school in Carp, so you pretty much knew from grade school you would be a Warrior at CHS. It's not like one would aspire to that, but simply it was something to look forward to. Of course, had CHS, from the get go, been named the Dolphins, or Seals or what have you, the same pride would have been instilled. The same sense of community and unity. The same fight, I GUARANTEE YOU, would be taking place if for instance. To many, myself included, this is about tradition and history.

I read your Confederate Flag statements, and to be honest, though I realize it can be viewed as an extremely offensive icon, I would still say it has it's place in history. I still will teach my children what it looked like, and what it stood for. I think the problem with the CF, is that too often it is used as a symbol of hatred. THAT, I DO NOT AGREE WITH. I have similar feelings about the swastika, but I digress. My point is that I think it would be difficult to find anyone behind keeping the Warrior head who sees it as an insult to Native Americans. Instead, I think you would hear that it stands for pride, honor, and dignity. When I look to the head, I see a strong and regal leader who is intent on achieving his goals, whatever they may be. Earlier, you implied that unless one is Native American, s/he is not really entitled to giving an opinion on whether or not the imagery is not offensive. I would ask you then, are you Native American? If not, how can you really say that the icons are offensive. I am not trying to be facetious, I am merely saying I understand you being offended when someone makes a blanket statement about Mexicans or their culture but if an Irishman joined your argument, he may have good points, but he cannot really speak from a personal experience of being Mexican. Using your reasoning, you would be just as "un"-entitled to giving your opinion as I am. LOL so this is all in vain!! LOL (Kidding!)

I have enjoyed this debate immensely and I could go on and on if I had the character space! It is so much better than arguing with my two and four year old! Though, they don't help much when trying to think out a clear rebuttal! I do respect your opinions and I believe it is really important to hear the other side when jumping into any campaign. Know your opponent, right?! I'm not sure that either of us could bring the other to our "side" even if we both have good arguments.

That said, I do not live in Carp. I am in Sacramento County and yet when I heard about what was going on, I was affected. The only explanation I could come up with was as I stated before, is that I truly feel I identify with the Warrior name, the head, and all of the rest of the imagery as silly as that may sound. Of course, if it is changed, my identity is still what it is. I will always be a Warrior, but I will be VERY sad to see it go.

Cheers! (I was totally going to say that on my last post, yesterday!)

Mary

Hey David,

Is the passion that you say that Carp lacks similar that which I encountered with some SB students a while back?

Do you remember the student walk out in protest of anti-immigrant legislation? I was on State Street that day. As I walked to lunch I asked a Latina youth why all the students were out, pretending that I didn't know. She told me that she didn't know, but that it was to support something that her friend told her about, which was a good thing to support. Nice. She was only one kid - a follower. It doesn't make the whole student body less passionate.

Too bad you didn't have more passion about your own school - it's a great school! But you have passion now - to write about an issue occurring in a town that you don't claim to have ever lived in, about a complaint lodged by people that you don't even claim to know, involving a prideful town history that you clearly aren't aware of.

Did you know that the entire student body at Carp High walked out the day after the CUSD board vote and marched on the superintendent's office? Did you also know that there were approximately 1,000 attendees at last Tuesday's school board meeting which drew out to five hours due to all of the public comment?

But you say they have no passion. You also knock them for being fired up about non-issues, but not about more important things. How would you know how fired up people are about other issues? For the kids, this IS an important issue which is tangible to them. Good for them! Some will probably even overstate their points, and learn something about being more knowledgable about issues that they take stands on. Sounds good to me.

As this has unfolded, there is more of an issue than what I had originally thought, but any new realizations haven't come as result of input from condescending people such as yourself, or the hasty and emotional action taken by the school board. Instead, it has been due to the repeated, on-point, factually supported, yet heartfelt and respectful complaints being voiced by only a few rational folks (very few), including Elias himself, in spite of too much input such as yours.

My name is Katherine Torres Cards. I am writing to express a sadness on learning of the recent vote in the removal of the Warrior. As a Alumni of class of 1980 and of one of seven family members who are also graduates of Carpinteria High School. It is distressing to see that something like this would grant so much controversy. My father was the first Superintendent of Roads for the City of Carpinteria. During the first year of Carpinteria becoming an incorporated city, a contest for its new city logo was conducted. All were invited to submit their ideas and drawings. It was a young local student that was awarded the prize. The insignia was a drawing of a proud Indian warrior overlooking the Carpinteria Valley. It is one that still represents Carpinteria today. There is nothing but history that is encompassed with Carpinteria California. The town was first and foremost a home to local tribes The Aliso and Canalino tribes are some of them. By the way, two elementary schools are named for these tribes. Anyone that has ever been raised in Carpinteria if only for a short time, is aware of the pride in its history. In us history there are events that do not reflect favorably the image of the American Indian. This is true. There is also US History that displays negative facts about the pirates that roamed the US seas as well. In US history there are facts that do not reflect a positive reflection of the Hispanic. It is true that we see some of these images denoted to represent athletic teams. I think these mascots weren't intended to purpetuate hate, but rather determination, perseverance, success. The success that one learns from wins and losses in life. I think the things that encourage a negative stereo type are the hearts of people. Here is what I believe to be the heart of the Warrior insignia. Throughout the life of Carpinteria's City hood, life's events like World War I, the Vietnam War. The assassinations of President John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King. Everything that encompassed growth and change, seemed to be so large for one small community. The truth is that despite all of our differences we came together every Friday night at Memorial Stadium to celebrate our youth and our city. We were all Warriors on Friday night.It was the common thread that bounded us together. It still does. You ask what the big deal is? I say to you that even though Carpinteria is now considered prime realistate coastal community, and is now a place that many want to own a small piece of. There is something called community that continues to draw people toward it. It is called soul, and removal of a soul can't be measured. It began with indian warriors, has endured as warriors. It is true to say that Warrior Spirit Never Dies. It really doesn't.
Katherine Torres Cards