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Armenian Genocide Not Legally Founded


Sunday, February 2, 2014
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We join the Turkish-American citizens of California, members of the Pax Turcica Institute, to oppose Assembly Bill 659. Introduced by Assemblymember Adrin Nazarian, AB 659 seeks to impose the one-sided and legally unfounded “Armenian genocide” narrative in the history-social science curricula of our public schools.

As acts of crime, all genocides, including the Holocaust, Srebrenica, and Rwanda, have been determined through relevant court tribunals and verdicts. In contrast, the atrocities in the Ottoman Empire were never tried in any court. No legal ground to charge the crime of genocide was ever established. Last month, in the landmark Perincek vs. Switzerland decision, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that genocide is “a very narrowly defined legal notion which is difficult to prove” in the Armenian case. ECHR also doubted that there could be a general consensus on the alleged “Armenian genocide” as it remains a matter of historical debate. In 2012, then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton expressed the same position.

Reputable American scholars, including Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, Guenter Lewy, Justin McCarthy, Edward J. Erickson, and Michael Gunter, have rejected the characterization of the Ottoman Armenian tragedy as genocide.

Furthermore, during World War I, over half a million Turks, Kurds, and other Muslims were massacred by the Armenian armed groups, fighting alongside the Russian, Greek, and French armies, with an aim to carve an ethnic Armenian state. While we share the pain of innocent Armenians who perished in World War I, memories of the non-Armenian victims are insulted by this bill.

AB 659’s advocacy of an unfounded allegation of a crime constitutes an educational malpractice. Therefore, we urge a vote against this bill when it comes to the floor. The young generations should have a choice not to be indoctrinated using a single disputed viewpoint.

Comments

Independent Discussion Guidelines

The genocide of Armenians is proven historical fact.

Yes to Assembly Bill 659.
No to nationalist turk propaganda.

A country that imprisons jouranlists and artists cannot be trusted.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Was anyone put on trial for the massacre of the Heugenots?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 9:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Please also include the history of the Roe vs Wade genocide of 50 million innocent American citizens, at the hands of their own mothers. While 50 million fathers stood by, and did nothing.

foofighter (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Would you like fries with that Foo?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 9:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Many Reputable Scholars Challenge The Conventional, One-Sided Anti-Turkish Narrative And / Or Refrain From Alleging The Crime Of Genocide
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/20...

These Are Their Words

Background – War And Imperial Collapse

The collapse of the Ottoman Empire dramatically rearranged the map of a vast region. What was once a sprawling, multi-ethnic empire splintered into more than two-dozen new nations, from the Balkans to the Caucasus to the Arabian peninsula. Across the surface of these lands unfolded a profound human tragedy. Nearly incessant war crippled the Ottoman economy. It left towns devoid of men to care for households or to tend crops. Military requisitions drained the countryside of livestock and many of the labor-saving implements of daily life. Disease ran rampant and famine struck many.

Vast Population Movements

As new states coalesced, large population masses streamed across the landscape, some fleeing the path of war, some seeking new lives among ethnic brethren or co-religionists, some having suffered expulsion, and some obeying negotiated population exchanges. Two such major movements were (a) the flight of Muslim refugees from newly-established Christian states in Balkans and the Caucasus into what would become modern Turkey during the period roughly between 1821 and 1922, and (b) the relocation of much of the Ottoman Armenian population from the war zone of eastern Anatolia into Ottoman domains in Syria, mainly in 1915-16.

A Genuine Historic Controversy

History records the enormous human suffering from both of these events: Perhaps 5.5 million Muslims, mostly Turks, died as refugees or were killed in the years immediately preceding and during World War I, as well as through the formative years of the Republic of Turkey. And certainly hundreds of thousands of Armenians died during the Armenian Revolt and the relocations consequently ordered by the Ottoman government. Scholars on the Ottoman Empire continue to examine the details and causes of these twin tragedies. What they have uncovered is not a singular tale of Christian woe, but rather a complex story that, if presented as evidence, would make it highly unlikely that a genocide charge could be sustained against the Ottoman government or its successor before a neutral arbiter.

Thus, whether the tragic suffering of the Ottoman Armenians meets the definition of the crime of genocide as provided by the . . .See Appendix 1 . . . United Nations Genocide Convention . . . Appendix 1 remains a genuine historic controversy. Moreover, the notion that the one-sided Armenian narrative is settled history must be utterly rejected so that researchers will feel free to delve into the details of these contested events.....

zubeyde (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

2
Many Reputable Scholars Challenge The Conventional, One-Sided Anti-Turkish Narrative And / Or Refrain From Alleging The Crime Of Genocide
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/20... 2
Questions Considered

Among the work of the scholars below, many of whom are Ottoman history experts, are considerations of the following questions:

* Is the genocide label, which is so vigorously promoted by Armenian advocacy organizations appropriate?

* Did the Ottoman government during World War I possess the requisite intent described by the U.N. Genocide Convention, to destroy the Armenians?

* What was the Armenian * Revolt . . . See Appendix 2 . . . Armenian Revolt . . . Appendix 2 and how did it impact the Ottoman government’s decision to relocate Armenian civilians from eastern Anatolia?

* What was the ultimate toll upon the Armenian population? And how many deaths could be attributed to the various causes: intercommunal warfare, starvation, exposure, massacre, disease, etc.?

* What was the ultimate toll upon the Ottoman Muslim population embroiled in these same events? And how many deaths can be attributed to the same causes?

Their work establishes a better basis upon which to address historic grievances than the one-sided narrative most often provided in media accounts and by Armenian lobbyists and their advocates. In effect, these scholars provide the oft-ignored historical context, which is critical to any explanation of the shared past of the Turkish and Armenian peoples.

At a minimum, the list below demonstrates that in fact, there exists no common agreement that the genocide label is appropriate and that, contrary to assertions made by Armenian lobby groups, the details of the historic narrative remain open to further study and interpretation.

zubeyde (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

3
Many Reputable Scholars Challenge The Conventional, One-Sided Anti-Turkish Narrative And / Or Refrain From Alleging The Crime Of Genocide
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/20... 3
The Impact Of Physical And Academic Intimidation

Sadly, this list likely under-represents the number of scholars who would challenge the conventional wisdom on the Armenian tragedy. Those who write from a contra-genocide perspective have had to do so under extraordinary risk. Merely because of something he wrote, the home Prof. Stanford Shaw of U.C.L.A. was firebombed. Death threats have been received by Justin McCarthy and his family. The university press that published Guenter Lewy’s latest work was harassed by two Armenian scholars. (See, . . . Appendix 3: Ethnic Cleansing or Genocide . . . ? Appendix 3, by Masaki Kakiszaki, Critique: Critical Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 16, No. 1, 85–92, Spring 2007.) The University of Southern California in 2006 buckled to the vociferous protest of an Armenian pressure group and canceled a symposium by two former Turkish diplomats. Meanwhile, foreign nations such as France and Switzerland have rendered it against the law even to hold the contra-genocide viewpoint. Princeton University’s Bernard Lewis was famously fined by a French court in 1995 for such an “offense.” And, the Armenian terrorist organizations ASALA and JCAG carried out no fewer than 73 acts of terrorism in North America alone, killing 16 people. Around the world, Armenian terrorists killed at least 50 more people, mostly Turkish diplomat murdered in planned assassinations and injured over 500, all in the name of “genocide recognition.” In short, the chilling effect this has had on free discussion and open debate on the history of the late Ottoman Empire has been genuine and severe, lowering a curtain of fear over the consideration of this important era of world history.

Additions And Subtractions

Our aim is to evaluate as closely as possible each name on the list based on the published statements or writings of each scholar that are readily available. We welcome visitor suggestions for additions to the list. And likewise, if you believe that a particular name ought not be on the list, please let us know. Our goal is to continue to openly discuss and debate the details of history and the genocide allegation. For feedback, please contact info at tc-america.org

zubeyde (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

4
Many Reputable Scholars Challenge The Conventional, One-Sided Anti-Turkish Narrative And / Or Refrain From Alleging The Crime Of Genocide
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/20... 4

Whether the tragic suffering of the Ottoman Armenians meets the definition of the crime of genocide as provided by the United Nations Genocide Convention [web] remains a genuine historic controversy. The notion that the one-sided Armenian narrative is settled history does not reflect the truth and must be utterly rejected.

The work of the following scholars demonstrates that there exists no common agreement that the genocide label is appropriate and that, contrary to assertions made by Armenian lobby groups, the historic narrative of this painful period in Ottoman-Armenian relations remains open to further study and interpretation. Furthermore, the work by the leading historians on the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East provides the oft-ignored historical context without which any explanation of the shared past of the Turkish and Armenian peoples is simply impossible.

Our aim is to evaluate as closely as possible each name on the list based on the published statements or writings of each scholar that are readily available. Our goal is to continue to openly discuss and debate the details of history and the genocide allegation. For feedback, please contact info at tc-america.org
________________________________________

SCHOLARS

* Arend Jan Boekestijn
* Mary Schaeffer Conroy
* Youssef Courbage
* Paul Dumont
* Bertil Duner
* Gwynne Dyer
* Edward J. Erickson
* Philippe Fargues
* Michael M. Gunter
* Paul Henze
* Eberhard Jäckel
* Firuz Kazemzadeh
* Yitzchak Kerem
* William L. Langer
* Bernard Lewis
* Guenter Lewy
* Heath W. Lowry
* Andrew Mango
* Robert Mantran
* Michael E. Meeker
* Justin McCarthy
* Hikmet Ozdemir
* Stephen Pope
* Michael Radu
* Jeremy Salt
* Stanford Shaw
* Norman Stone
* Hew Strachan
* Elizabeth-Anne Wheal
* Brian G. Williams
* Gilles Veinstein
* Malcolm Yapp
* Thierry Zarcone
* Robert F. Zeidner
* 69 US Academicians To House of Representatives, Petition 1985
*Appel De Blois (English)

zubeyde (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Turkey should admit their guilt for the Armenian Genocide and Turkish troll, deniers should get off of the Independent site. Untill Turkey confesses thier crimes they wiill remain a backward nation still covered by the stench of mass killings, inhumane medical experiments, and brazen thievery. They even tried to collect the life insurance for people they slaughtered. Is it any wonder why Turks are the most hated nation in the middle east?

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@Ken Volok, but no one calls the massacre of Heugenots a genocide, a narrowly defined act of crime, and then seeks teaching it as a fact in schools. No one seeks, as they tried in France, to punish people for challenging this one-sided charge of crime. AB 659 is not only an insult to Turks, Kurds and other Muslims who equally suffered during World War I. It's the beginning of an insult against the very freedom of speech and thought that we as Americans enjoy. Again, the denial of "Armenian genocide" term does not constitute the denial of the extent of suffering of Armenian people. The terms is simply unfair and unjust.

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 9:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Preponderance of scholars define the systematic mass killing of Ottoman Armenians as a genocide. What else would one call the government sponsored annihilation of a race. The point of the Bill in question, however, is to include the teaching of several genocides, including the Armenian, in our schools. It passed unanimously in the Assembly after all sides had a chance to present their views.

Hakan (anonymous profile)
February 2, 2014 at 10:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@"Hakan". The scholarship is divided over the depiction of the events as a genocide, furthermore, the definition of a CRIME is not the job of scholars but that of courts! If we are to arbitrarily describe any act of injustice we think was a crime as such in LAWS, without any court trial or verdict, then where do you think this society is really going? And doing so through political trickery, under the influence of special interest groups, using resolutions drafted by ethnically-affiliated legislators. So, if we have one day a Turkish-American political influence in this state, shall we have to reverse all these resolutions? Is this what justice and fair teaching of history is about?

davidbeck (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 12:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Funny how an American publication would allow itself to be a mouthpiece for the criminally insane, Turkish/Azeri/Alqaeda click. Genocide of Christians in Turkey is a historical fact and no bought and paid for fake "historian" can refute it.

Armen (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 12:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

@Armen. The massacre of Azeris by Armenians in the town of Khojaly in February 1992 is a historical fact too. So are the massacres of over half a million Muslims by Armenians in Anatolia during WWI. Yet all human beings deserve dignity and justice, bring Christian does not make you any more qualified than others. Yes, indeed the Independent is an American newspaper, and upholds the constitutional freedom of speech. If you oppose that, you are definitely in a wrong country if you are even in it.

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 12:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Anyone remember Gourgen Yanakian? I played chess with him at the SB Chess club in the early '70's. He seemed like a nice enough fellow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin...

Botany (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 6:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Don't let Turkiey censor Americans in the US.

The Turkish historical revisionists won't admit their ancestors did anything wrong ever!

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

1
If Turks committed a genocide which is the greatest crime of humanity, and if Turkey really avoids of facing its history, and if the Armenians and their supporters sincerely want Turkey to do it, then why do the Armenians persistently refuse Turkey’s suggestions to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and other countries? For example:

“Our objective is to have the matter investigated by historians and experts. We are ready to accept the decision of the joint historical commission. We agree for different professionals from various countries to be involved” Abdullah Gul recently said. If historians committee project could be realized, issue of so called Armenian genocide will not be discussed by politicians but by historians. Furthermore, other than Turkish and Armenian historians, historians from third countries will also be included.

The Turks who were eager for establishment of such an historical commission, were supported by the United Nations, European Parliament and Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). http://www.tegenwicht.org/weblog_2006....... http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/bericht/..., http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/do...... and was very happy.
While Turkey was eager and very happy, the Armenians were exceedingly unwilling and very angry.
http://www.keghart.com/content/dans-l... http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekl...

muz (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

2
In an interview with Armenian Reporter, Prof Richard Hovannisian from California University and the father of Raffi Hovannisian, the first Foreign Minister of Armenia, said: ‘It is very dangerous to establish such an historical commission…because according to 1948 United Nations’s Genocide Convention, a deliberate and planned massacre is mandatory. The Turks will accept that nearly 200-300 thousand Armenian died; but nobody can call them deliberate acts. In Turkish Archives the Turks have the telegrams sent from vilayets about the then Armenian upraisals and documents about the Armenians who fled from the Ottoman Army. So, the Turkish historians will accuse the Armenians and say that all these events were a reaction to what the Armenians did and were not deliberate’ http://www.kophaber.com/news_detail.p...

One of the supporters of so called Armenian genocide resolutions in U.S. Congress, Adam Schiff said “A committee about history is a struggle for distracting the truth. Turkey cannot rewrite history in exchange for good relations with Armenia.”

ANCA and other Armenian lobbying organizations stated that Armenia is forced to make dangerous concessions by Turkey and that Turkey’s moves towards establishing joint historians commission aims to call so called Armenian genocide into question and suspend its international recognition. ANCA’s aim is to provide recognition of so called Armenian genocide by U.S. Congress before establishment of a historians committee to discuss the events by keeping pressure.urging the
Congress.

muz (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 9:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

3
Let us go to a few years ago:
*In 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events by Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians abondened the project refusing to continue to fulfil their commitments and afterwards the Armenian foreign minister announced that they did not want to discuss the 1915 events with historians. (I. Press Release 11.1.2005 Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform – VAT
The Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform deeply regrets to announce that she will not carry through her starting initiative „The First Viennese Armenian-Turkish Round Table” (FVATR Vienna 2005) originally planned for spring 2005. The reason is that the Armenian partner has not provided us with the necessary confirmation as agreed in August 2004…….On the other hand, the Turkish partner accepted already to participate in the dialogue, in which each part was supposed to present 180 documents on the year 1915 showing their understanding of this delicate matter. http://www.turkishdigest.com/document...)

*Armenia refused the Turkish prime minister's and the Turkish Assembly's invitation announced on April 13, 2005 which suggested to establish a Joint Commission composed of historians from both sides and discuss the events which took place during the 1st World War.

*And the Turkish prime minister repeated the same invitation on February 2008 , in Munich at the 44th Security Conference where the Armenian Minister of Foreign Affairs Mr. Oskanian also attended?

In neither of these invitations was there any precondition, unlike it is claimed by the Armenians.

***Why did the Armenian historian Sarafyan, who accepted the invitation of the then chief of Turkish History Foundation, Halacoglu, for cooperation to investigate Harput events, abandon the project, after talking the Armenian diaspora?

*The Ottoman and Turkish archives are open, unlike it is claimed by the diaspora. http://www.ankara.edu.tr/english/yazi.... http://www.tsk.mil.tr/ENGLISH/8_FRAGM......
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/tur...... http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/tur...... http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kit......

Even, Armenian historian Ara Sarafian from Gomitas Institute and Hilmar Kaiser searched the Ottoman archives (www.sarigelinbelgeseli.com

muz (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

4
*In spite of this, why are the Armenian archives including the one in Zoryan Armenian Institute in Boston closed? Both Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation offered the Armenians to open these archives; but the directors of the Zoryan Institute replied that they did not have enough money to open the archives. Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation promised financial support.Why did the Armenians refuse this suggestion too? (Nüzhet Kandemir, http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/418517.asp).

Note that Zoryan Institute has quite enough money to provide financial support for Taner Akçam who advocated the Armenian claims while working in Minnesota University until recently.

Why have the Armenians always been terribly afraid of establishment of historical joint commissions?

Is it not striking that Sarafian, the head of the London-based Gomidas Institute, said Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s offer to Armenia to establish a commission of historians to resolve the Armenian issue was positive, but Armenia was the wrong address. He also said that freedom of expression for historians in Armenia is limited and the genocide issue has become a political tool. http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/do......

If a genocide had really occured, why did Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America announce ‘We don’t need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically’?

Why did the chief of the Armenian Archives in Armenia tell that they were not interested in the achives, but all they are interested is the world’s public opinion?

Or why have the Armenians not admitted to an international court yet?

In your life, have you ever seen a criminal who persistently calls the victim to bring his evidences? And, have you ever seen a victim who passionately accuses somebody of committing crime and giving him great harm but strictly avoids of bringing his proofs before the referees or going to court, and tells that he need not prove that person’s guilt, because the community has already accepted him as guilty?

In this situation would you not question the era you are living in? 5000 BC or 2000BC?

What else should the Turks do to face their history? Is it Turkey/Turks or Armenia and those who support them who are terribly afraid of facing their history?

muz (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

European Human Rights Court( EHRC) verdict of 17 Dec.2013 on the Perincek v. Switzerland case emphasized tha t" the genocide is precisely a legal concept".
For the Crime of genocide to be qualified as such( in the meaning of the 1948 " UN Convention on Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide", a decision of an appropriate international court is the "sine qua non"..
Therefore all parliamentary, governmental, ecclesiastical and international organisations' , classroom decisions, are thereby " nul and void".

Armenian genocide proponemts have to face it, and concede.

What's more, the EHRC distinguihed the holocaust from the "Armenian Genocide-claims..
Hence the "Armenan Genocide is not the first genocide" in the 20th century, yet " an international- empeirialist lie" as Perincek put it before unashamed Swiss Courts, and the EHRC.
Ulku Bassoy

ulkubassoy (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 10:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

With the recent verdict by the European Courts of Human Rights, it is established that the events of 1915 are NOT genocide. With this remarkable milestone of a court verdict, the Turkish side of the story, long dismissed, ignored, silenced, and/or censored, will now finally be heard. Armenian agitation, propaganda, deception, terrorism, treason, revolts, territorial demands, and the resulting Muslim, mostly Turkish, losses will be included in the debate for a balanced treatment of the Turkish-Armenian conflict of WWI. Reasoned, civilized dialogue dialogue can hopefully take place. Turko-phobia and Islamo-phobia should be checked at the door prior to debating the Turkish-Armenian conflict. If that is done, then it will be seen that it was a complex human tragedy engulfing all the people of the era and area, not just Armenians. Furthermore, Armenian complicity in this tragedy, Armenian war crimes and hate crimes can no longer be dismissed out of hand. Playing field seems just a bit more level now, thanks to your decision.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow a truckload of bul$h!t from the Turkish trolls. The decision in the Perincek vs. Switzerland was that Switzerland had denied Perineck ( who ironically in in prision for life in Turkey for political reasons) his right to free speach. The court made no judgement as to the validity of Mr Perineck's insane ideas about the Armenian Genocide.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 12:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The preamble to the Genocide Convention states: "Genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity at all periods of history".
The genocide of the Armenians is precisely one of the genocides indicated by this statement. It is foundational to the very concept, as Raphael Lemkin made abundantly clear. This has since been verified and reiterated by the overwhelming consensus of contemporary historians who specialize in genocide, a consensus which, if repudiated, would make a laughing stock of the entire field. Trying to limit the meaning and application of the word genocide to recent legal proceedings is, of course, a convenient escape hatch for those wishing to erase history and rewrite it as a grandiose myth in which truth is no longer discernible.

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

All recognized genocides, such as the Holocaust, Srebrenica, and Rwanda, have been determined by a tribunal in accordance with the 1948 United Nations Convention on Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. But the atrocities in the Ottoman Empire were never assessed by a competent court and the intent to exterminate Armenians was never established. Bernard Lewis, a renowned Princeton scholar of Ottoman history, described the genocide claim as “the Armenian version of history.” In 2012, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton stated that the Turkish-Armenian issue is a matter of historical debate by scholars. The UN, the US, the UK, Israel... No one in right mind recognizes the wild Armenian accusations, white washing Armenian hate crimes and iognoring Turkish suffering at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Check out an excellent editorial published on this subject yesterday in the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinion...

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nice try Turkey trolls. Here is a snippet from the Washington Post op ed that you cited:
"We’re not doubting the importance of teaching about the Armenian genocide that began in 1915."

Is that the same genocide that you are trying to deny?

Oh and here is a link to a United Nations document on genocide that expains their position on the HISTORICAL FACTS OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Do...

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You guys who deny the genocide are just a bunch of turkeys.

dolphinpod14 (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There was also a Turkish genocide of Greek and Assryians during the same era. The Turkish nation should be ashamed of its history and apologize to the world for their crimes. Instead we get the same denial b.s.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 5:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Herschel, it is really disturbing to read your incivil, racist anti-Turkish rant. Yes, indeed who speaks of Turkish massacres in the hands of Armenian Revolutionary Federation and Hunchak groups fighting in support of Russian army in Erzurum, Erzincan, Kars, Van or the Caucasus. Weren't those Muslims human beings? Or may be, as some of your supporters here remark, only Christians deserve a favor of recognition?

People of all ranks and races come to California and U.S. to live in peace, respect, tolerance and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, few like yourself bring their hate and petty racism with them, use and spread hate to make money. Doubt that? Check ANCA's first message after the infamous AB 659 passage, asking more money... That's how they respect the memory of victims, it's all about big money dirty politics. That's the reason why you never will get recognition that the victims deserved, because the pursuit of this "genocide" agenda has nothing to do with commemoration or justice, but with revenge.

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey Turkey troll I did not bring anything to California, I was born here. How about you? Are you even in the California? If so you have brought with you the filthy baggage of a disgraced nation, Turkey, with you. This is not about race. it is about the NATION of Turkey taking responsibility for a national policy of extermination of Armenian, Greek and Assryian Turkish citizens. In fact, some of the toughest critics of the Turkish government's policy of denial are Muslim Turks. How about Turkeys current war on Kurdish culture? Your citation of acts of indvidual Armenians alone, in groups or in the service of Russian forces do not in the smallest sense excuse the horrific criminal acts of the Nation of Turkey.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 6:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not again! The Turks or the Ottoman Turks did enact genocide upon the Armenians, the Pontic Greeks, Assyrians and others around W.W.I. Once Erdogan can bring himself to admit it, things can move forward. Did others do terrible and bad and genocidal actions, yes, but it doesn't change this. No statute of limitations.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
February 3, 2014 at 7:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Over 45 nations emerged as the Ottoman Empire was destroyed by nationalist rebellions, massacres, and displacement of civilians, resulting in the loss of over five million Ottoman citizens, including 4.1 million Muslims. Many of us Turkish Americans are the grandchildren of WWI refugees from the Balkans and Caucuses. We demand that our suffering and loss, some at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries, is also acknowledged and respected. Just because Turks of a different ethnicity and/or religion is no reason the ignore their tragedy. After all, Turks did not attack or bomb London, Paris, or Moscow; Brits, French and Russians attacked Turkish lands and used some traitorous Ottoman-Armenian against the Ottoman people. Turks were only defending their homes, like any self-respecting human do if his/her home and family are attacked. Accepting Armenian claims of genocide is, therefore, selective morality which is immorality. European Court of Human Rights verdict of December 17, 2013 solidly verifies these thoughts.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 4, 2014 at 8:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSA1xn...

Some people still deny the holocaust as well. To deny a genocide is mental illness.

Georgy (anonymous profile)
February 5, 2014 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Holocaust was tried in a court of law, the Nuremberg Trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurember...). The alleged "Armenian genocide" was never established in any court. So comparing this allegation to the Holocaust is a devaluation of the latter. And it is unfortunate that this historical revisionism is being pushed through our state legislature and education by political lobbying. Furthermore, the fact that some legislators get elected only to push their own ethnic agenda in this country is very disturbing and dangerous.

Herschel, if you were born in America, it would not hurt to realize that humans deserve justice regardless of their ethnic or religious belonging. Your racist rant, i.e. calling anyone disagreeing with you a "Turkey troll", has little to do with America.

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 5, 2014 at 5:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Georgy, by your argument, judges of the European Court of Human Rights must be mentally ill: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/...

How ridiculous can this get? Imaging someone who got into fight with you calls you a criminal, repeats it for few years, gets it published in media, lobbies legislatures. And then one day, you get arrested for saying you are not a criminal. That's what this allegation is all about, making someone's personal story a fact of crime without any court.

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 5, 2014 at 5:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

if you folks would just FESS UP, then you can move on, it's possible, you know? Japan will not fully admit its war crimes and mass executions in China during the 1930s (RAPE OF NANKING book) and the issue will never go away, never go away. Erdogan and thoughtful Turks should sigh, feel bad, apologize (and to the Pontic Greeks and many other minorities), and then feel free to develop on. Further, Turkey will never get into the EU until the man up on this. Ego, national pride, NATIONALISM (not good Patriotism)...get over it, move on.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
February 5, 2014 at 6:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

'Holocaust was tried in a court of law, the Nuremberg Trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurember...). The alleged "Armenian genocide" was never established in any court ', says ulugen. This is nonsense. The word Holocaust never comes up in the Nuremberg trials. The Nazi war criminals were tried for exactly that: war crimes and crimes against humanity. The same way Talat Pasha was found guilty and sentenced to death by Turkish courts in 1919 for the mass murder of Armenians. Both the Holocaust and the genocide of the Armenians took place before the Genocide Convention was instituted. But anyone with an ounce of reasoning and acquaintance with history recognizes them as genocides.

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 5, 2014 at 7:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh how the desperate parse. Don't worry Turkamen! The truth is liberating! And you can't censor Americans in their own land.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 5, 2014 at 9:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Talat Pasha was not tried by a competent international tribunal, in fact, was murdered in Berlin by a terrorist, Soghomon Tehlirian, without any jury or justice. Holocaust is considered an act of genocide due to the established intent and verdict in a court, the alleged "Armenian genocide" is not. And Jews did not have armed units fighting alongside Russian, French or U.S. armies to carve out a Jewish homeland in Germany, Armenians did in Turkey. So the comparison itself is a total nonsense.

The whole 'Armenian genocide' allegation actually is a continuation of the race extermination and expansion policy embarked upon by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation in 1890. The objective was depopulation of several Ottoman provinces, for which massacres of Muslims (Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Azeris) were pursued. Because Armenians were not a majority in any single province and they needed that to carve out a state. Any doubts? Check out modern Republic of Armenia, barely few ethnic non-Armenians can be found living on the territory of former Erivan province that had over 50% Muslim population a century ago. Any Armenian can travel freely to Turkey, some even work there, no Turk can travel to Armenia without special security. This is the reality, this is the pursuit.

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 6, 2014 at 10:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

See www.ethocide.com for a photo of the well-trained, well-armed Armenian military academy cadets posing with their Russian-made Mosin weapons as far back as 1906, flying in the face of the rhetoric we are all so familiar with: "poor,starving, unarmed, loyal Armenians cut down by blood-thirsty Turks for no reason on one 1915 morning.

You can easily see that Armenian genocide is a long-discredited political claim; whereas Jewish Holocaust is a court=proven fact. Equating the two, if not based on ignorance or deception, is an insult to the silent memory of 6 million Jews and other victims of Nazi Germans.

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
February 6, 2014 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The incompetence of the Ottoman Tribunal consisted mainly in its abject failure to ensure the lawful punishment of the leading war criminals it found guilty, which then opened up the field for the
systematic denialism of which "ulugen" and "Kirikovali" are the latest exponents.

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 8, 2014 at 6:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There's something sick about denying historical reality despite nearly 100 years of accumalated evidence. Can't censor Americans like the people of Turkey are oppressed. And lying about history will only fuel the oppression longer.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 8, 2014 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Byron, justice is not served by dancing around the legal terms and inappropriately applying them anywhere you like. By attempting to attach the label of genocide to the events that were never tried in a court of law as such, by forcing it up the throats of people through paid political lobbying instead of appropriate courts, you are actually devaluing the very essence of the grave act of crime against humanity and doing disservice to victims of genocides in Rwanda, Bosnia, Cambodia and other places.

No one denies that Armenians have suffered enormously in World War I. But squaring blame on one nation or one government, when the history says clearly that armed Armenians were fighting alongside Russian, French and Greeks killing and ethnically cleansing Turks. So did equally other ethnic peoples die in the hands of these armed Armenians. Selectively applying the genocide term insults not only the memory of non-Armenians who perished, but also of those innocent Armenians who perished because of the irresponsible actions of the leaders of ARF, descendants of which are peddling their souls for money now. The question is who gains from all of this?

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 10, 2014 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ulugen, it's not about hating anybody- it's about historical truth. "Hate" was the problem to begin with, it continues with denial.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
February 10, 2014 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken Volok [Feb. 10 at 11:38], you said it all in two short, eloquent sentences. Thank you.

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 10, 2014 at 12:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ulugen, I am not dancing around anything. Genocide did not come into existence with the Convention in 1948. The Convention, as its preamble makes clear and as I tried to get you to understand, is based on the recognition that genocide has occurred throughout human history (something you waltzed away from for some reason). That being so, the Convention is based on and codifies the features of genocide as it was recognized in history by the framers at the time of writing. If they had said, "We can't find genocide where someone wasn't prosecuted for it" we wouldn't have had a Genocide Convention.

First there is a crime, then the criminal is sought. If the criminal is not sought, arrested and brought to justice, the crime remains a crime. In the case of the 1915 genocide, though the perpetrators are dead and gone and cannot be tried, Turkey bears state responsibility for their acts in perpetuity and must come clean, especially since it has recently used every opportunity to identify with its Ottoman past.

Another mistake you make: your cartoon version of who and what diasporan Armenians are: supposedly all ARFers, "peddling their souls for money". Besides being the vilest possible insult, this is utterly false and can only be the result of profound ignorance of the reality of the Armenian community. There are many strains of thought among Armenians, not just the ARF (Tashnag) one. But no Armenian will question that Armenians and Armenia were subjected to a genocide of unprecedented scale and savagery in 1915 and most will go on struggling for its just recognition until they don't have a dime in their pockets.

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 10, 2014 at 6:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here are some ARFrs who fought for this country's freedoms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Ki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_M...
There were thousands of men and women like them.

One Armenian even won the Congressional Medal of Honor defending this country's freedoms including the right to free speech..

Keyser_Soze (anonymous profile)
February 10, 2014 at 8:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gag orders from Turkey will be fought tooth and nail by ARF members and their progeny. In this case, we have a foreign government attempting to prevent the truth from being exposed under the veil of free speech. I am proud of those ARF members like Harry Kizirian, Victor Maghakian and Ernest Dervishian and more.

Keyser_Soze (anonymous profile)
February 10, 2014 at 8:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Again, Byron, it does not seem to get through to you that "genocide" is a LEGAL term applicable ONLY through legitimate and impartial court of law. In other words, I call you a criminal, and expect others (especially legislatures in third countries) to treat you accordingly, I must have a court decision in my hand. Otherwise, anyone can find any reason or reference whatsoever and quote it to justify their point of view. The fact that alleged perpetrators are dead by now, does not mean that allegation of a crime cannot be tried in a court of law by those who claim it. There are sufficient number of historians and legal scholars involved on both sides of this issue to draw the just conclusion. The question is whether there is courage and confidence to do so.

As to some Tashnak pride here. I hope that reasonable Armenians will realize that besides the utopian racist ideology that brought upon a catastrophe and the plundering of own public in America by hate peddling nowadays, ARF has done and is not doing anything to make life better for Armenia or Armenians.

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 12, 2014 at 7:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ulugen, genocide is not ONLY a narrow legal term, much as you would like it to be. It is also a very important political and HISTORICAL term, essential to the writing and understanding of modern history. If you wish to denounce its every use outside of what you consider to be its proper limits you have a big job ahead of you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFPch5...

Byron (anonymous profile)
February 12, 2014 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The legal term for Genocide before the word Genocide was "Crimes Against Humanity." That is what Talat pasha was charged with and convicted of in abstentia.

Keyser_Soze (anonymous profile)
February 12, 2014 at 12:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ARF will live as long as the memories of Harry Kizirian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Ki...

Keyser_Soze (anonymous profile)
February 12, 2014 at 12:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, Byron, I am not sure the survivors of the Holocaust, one of those in my family, would highly appreciate you devaluing their suffering by comparison to inter-ethnic conflict in which both Armenians and Muslims killed each other in large numbers. This is not about a denial of anyone's suffering or memory, it's about fair evaluation of what happened. I am not sure AB 659 and forcing your version of story up the throat of people through politics or lobbying rather than courts is the just way to get your cause recognized.

ulugen (anonymous profile)
February 19, 2014 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ulugen, the majority of reputable and independent scholars agree that what you are saying is nothing but "BULL SH##." Otherwise, there would have been an acknowledgment by the majority of reputable and truly independent scholars / historians as to the veracity of your so called claims.

Moreover, if Armenians were guilty of atrocities, it would have been brought up at Talat's, Enver's and Jamal's trials. Your claims did not come up. Instead, the three GOETFERENS where all found guilty by a "TURKISH TRIBUNAL" for crimes against humanity against the Armenian people. That is why they were sentenced to death in abstentia.

After that, operation Nemesis hunted them down and killed all three for the benefit of the Turkish government.

The Tashnak party didn't even get a thank you from the Turkish government for operation Nemesis.

Keyser_Soze (anonymous profile)
February 19, 2014 at 9:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"GENOCIDE CLAIM IS RACIST, DISHONEST, AND DECEITFUL HISTORY

Armenians must face up to their own unspeakable crimes against humanity before any closure can occur. If one is still in doubt, let me refer one to an Armenian source to see photos of Armenian murderers, gun-toting Armenian clergy, their Muslim, mostly Turkish, victims:

Houshamatyan of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, Epic Battles, 1890-1914 (The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006.

The incredible photo on page 185 can be seen here: www.ethocide.com .

This one will make a believer out of you that Armenians are not telling you the whole truth... They never did!

These facts contradict with the embellished and falsified Armenian narrative, which in turn, creates “cognitive dissonance” in Armenian people. Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting ideas, beliefs, and values simultaneously.

In a state of dissonance, people may feel surprise, anxiety, fear, guilt, anger, humiliation, or shame. Modern Psychology informs us that people tend to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create consistency in their belief system, or alternatively by reducing the importance of any one of the dissonant elements.

This is why Armenians will easily excuse Armenian terrorism, Armenian treason, Armenian revolts, Armenian murder of Muslims, mostly Turks. This is denial of Armenian hate crimes and war crimes in an indirect manner. No matter how one slices it, though, one thing is clear: Armenian took up arms against their own government and Turks defended their country. And none of this can be labeled genocide...

Kirlikovali (anonymous profile)
March 12, 2014 at 4:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Vaud and the Villains

This 19 piece 1930s New Orleans orchestra and cabaret will ... Read More