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Star of David Peace Maze

Pavel Constantin, Romania

Star of David Peace Maze


Defense of Israel


Tuesday, November 27, 2012
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Sometimes I wonder how different I would be if my parents had never moved to America from Israel. At this moment, I’d be a soldier serving in the Israeli Defense Forces, just like the rest of the 18-to-21-year-old Jewish Israelis are obliged to do, and forced into yet another war for my survival simply because I’m Jewish. The city my parents came from, the city I would have grown up in, has just been attacked. More than 270 missiles from Gaza targeted Israeli civilians in a total of three days, and the violence continues. So, while in America I’m free to go to college, go to parties, study abroad, and do pretty much whatever I want, I feel the need to share my concerns on the rise of anti-Zionism in America.

Vered Tova Hazanchuk
Click to enlarge photo

Vered Tova Hazanchuk

The other day, the University of California, Irvine, voted 16-0 to divest itself of companies that do business with the Jewish State. Here at UC Santa Barbara, a girl in one of my classes confidently compared the Israeli soldiers to the German Nazis that murdered their grandparents and great grandparents. Yet Israel is a country that is always willing to lend a helping hand to countries in need. It was the first to offer aid after the earthquake in Japan. It was one of the first countries to act to stop the genocide in Darfur. It sent over aid for Hurricane Sandy despite the constant attacks Israel’s people must face at home. In Israeli hospitals, a sick Palestinian may be treated before a wounded Israeli soldier because they offer medical attention based on fatalness, rather than health insurance or citizenship.

And yet Israel is the one criticized, despite the fact Israel has always been the one willing to compromise since day one, as seen in various peace treaties agreeing to a two-state plan Palestinians refused to negotiate with, including the United Nations Partition Plan. Palestinian leaders very publicly vow to “drive Israel into the Sea.” Peace is a two-way effort.

When the American government was first notified of the Jewish holocaust, they chose to do nothing long before eventually intervening. Americans now wonder how such a horrible thing could have happened. Well, your apathy may be costing a lot of lives, again.

So what I want to know, America, is why, when I turn on the news to hear about the weekly attacks on Israel, nobody seems to give a damn. Yet when Israel responds – the same people you wished defended themselves before Nazi Germany – it is an outrage. And you dare to compare these people to Nazis? It’s sickening.

Whether we realize it or not, we as Americans hold immense power in global affairs. And this is how we use that power? To criticize a targeted people and stand by as a country where Jews, Muslims, and Christians live side-by-side is struggling for survival?

It truly breaks my heart to say I’ve never felt so unsafe calling myself an American Jewish student in the UC system, one of the leading university systems in the world.

Vered Tova Hazanchuk is a second-year student at UC Santa Barbara.

Comments

Independent Discussion Guidelines

The world has become a very anti Semitic place Vered, something I never thought that I would see in my lifetime.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 7:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Religious states, whether Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, or whatever, have no place in the modern world.

banjo (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 8:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm sorry you feel unsafe. That must be awful to feel like that at such a young age.

The problem is not so much with the Israeli people, as it is with the Israeli government. Israel is based on a lie, as is the United States. We stole the land from the natives, and Israel stole the land from the Palestines, and they continue to steal to this day. We used the lame excuse of manifest destiny, and Israel used the excuse of divine will. As long as they continue to occupy the Palestinian land, there will be uproar, no matter how "generous" the Israeli government is.

residentsb (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 9:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Why is that banjo? Because you do not believe in religion? Religious extremism has no place in the modern world but religious states seeking a peaceful life should not be placed in the same category as extremism. Freedom of religion should be a worldwide freedom not something that one should need to hide. I do not have religious beliefs personally but I do know many people who are comforted by their religious beliefs. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

MSSB (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 9:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with residentSB. It's not the Israeli people at all, it's strictly the Israeli government and it's this strict brand of religious nationalism called Zionism.

Despite what you may have heard from your parents, the Israeli government is the most racist government in the world, comparable to apartheid South Africa! The number of UN resolutions that Israel has violated in it's treatment of Palestinians and other nations is appalling, and the only country who provides Israel a lifeline on the world-stage is unfortunately us (just look at how many times the US has used it's veto power to strike down these widely-popular UN resolutions, 65 times!). Our media here at home has a very pro-Zionist agenda and has fooled us into thinking that Israel's actions are always in self-defense, when really they're usually the aggressors and have made Gaza into an entire internment camp by instituting food blockades. We can see today that ever since 2000, the ratio of the number of Palestinians killed to the number of Israeli's killed is 7 to 1. In that same time period, 1476 Palestinian children have been killed, compared to 126 Israeli children. What kind of self-defense is this that US tax-payers are paying $8.2 million/day to fund Israel?

Jewish and Muslims in Palestine got along just fine back in the early 1900's, but it was the creation of the state of Israel with it's religious agenda which has caused this huge rift. Just imagine if Israel was never formed and Palestine was changed into a Muslim state, that would have been equally bad! Just compare Pakistan to India. Secular states have always been better because they provide equal rights to their citizens, regardless of religion.

You shouldn't let the rise of anti-Zionism in America affect you as a person, because you will always be a proud Jewish person and people saying bad things about Israel should never be seen as negative towards your faith, and I think a lot of people need to realize that being Jewish and being pro-Israel are two completely separate things. Many of the high religious figures in Judaism outright condemn the actions of the state of Israel. There's still a lot of Texas folks that still need to be brought to light, and I'm optimistic because us Americans have always stood with freedom and fairness, and the state of Israel doesn't treat it's 26% Muslim population anything like it's Jewish population.

I encourage you to visit the website ifamericansknew.org, it has a lot of facts and numbers regarding the number of people who have died, UN resolutions, etc.

cleverguySB (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

CleverGuySB. What can I say? First off, you are completely wrong about Zionism in just about every way. Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. Jews are a nation; not only a religion. Jews have been chased and persecuted in every land they have lived since being exiled from the land of Israel (only called Palestine later by the Romans). A people without a land, they yearned to return to their historical homeland for 3000 years. Any look at the archeology of ancient Israel will bear out the Jewish people's historical roots there.

Zionism was created with a nationalist spirit. Most early Zionists were anti-religious. They rejected the passivity of religious Jews, beaten down after millenia of persecution. They pursued a country - like many others in that period (mid to late 1800s) like any other ethnic group.

For Jews, Zionism is the simple idea that Jews deserve a land of their own, just like anyone else.

As for Jews and Arabs living together in peace before the founding of the state, you don't have to look too hard for many instances of anti-Jewish riots and massacres. 1929 in Hebron is a good example.

So what do you do now when two peoples have rights to the same land. You divide it, as the UN tried to do in 1947 with the partition. The Jews accepted the partition. The Arab countries rejected it and started a war to eradicate Israel and the Jews there in.

Lots of bad things happened during that war both to Jews and Arabs. People lost their homes and their lands. 800000 Jews were expelled from the Arab countries in which they lived and 600000 Arabs fled Palestine. Some left because they were told be Arab goverments that they would be safer if they left while the Jews were being eradicated. Others left because they were driven out by the Israelis.

The numbers game of comparing death tolls is immoral, in my view. Just because Israel spends its time trying to protect its citizens doesn't mean that deaths and maimings on its side are less important.

So that leaves us with a difficult conclusion. Divide the land or everyone suffers. Israelis and Palestinians can only do this themselves. No imposed solution will ever work. Unilateral building in the West Bank hurts any chance for peace. Unilateral declarations at the UN - hardly a body that cares about Jews -- don't either.

I can go on and on about other things in your comment that are simply untrue but the bottom line is this as far as I can tell. There needs to be a separation. Two states, two peoples borders and other issues to be negotiated. The longer we wait, the more frustration and bloodshed.

Jewish students have a right to feel threatened on UC campuses. They are outnumbered and subject to a group think that rejects their identity as part of a nation entitled to a homeland like anyone else. I commend Vered for speaking out and hope that others will join her.

lilyrocks (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 10:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

lilyrocks, I with you on much of your comment, but is it helpful to distinguish between "political Zionism" (T. Herzl's The Jewish State starts this) and more recent "religious Zionism"? Under the national right to self-determination, think of post WW I, many new states were created, and then after WW II the UN, USA, and UK drew lines for a new "Israel" and Ben Gurion and most political Zionists were very happy with this.
After the 1967 6-Day Way, in which Israel was attacked first, Israel got control of Palestinian land (West Bank, and more). Soon, their 'accidental empire' led to colonies in the West Bank and a growth of radical religious Zionism, which is a problem, along with Arab intransigence.
Ben Gurion and others were reportedly OK even with having a new political Zion in Uganda or Cyprus, they wanted their own country where they could protect themselves after the Holocaust. Now the extreme Right in Israel, led by Bebe, want to keep the lands that do not morally belong to them.
On the other hand, urg is correct that anti-Semitism is on the rise, but as Ben-Ami of J Street (spoke last week) notes SOME (not all) of this renewed distaste is vs. the political country Israel extending illegal colonies into an area NOT given them by the UN, UK, or USA in 1947.
A tragic story. Hegel writes that a problem in history is when "right" (correct) goes against "right".
Above all, Israel must not attack Iran. Hamas is another story.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I like to speak numbers, because numbers are facts. In 1947, even after ship-loads and ship-loads of Jewish people arrived in that region, the populations were as follows (according to estimates from a source with pro-Israeli biases) 65% Non-Jewish (1,200,000), and 35% Jewish (650,000). In 1882, before the ship-loads, there was only a community of 24,000 Jews living in that region! The region was divided by an outside mandate through terrorism and financial pressures by Zionists on the English. The division of 1947 you speak of was never fair to begin with - 56% for Jews, 44% for Palestinians. That was why the riots began, because a large majority of the inhabitants of that region were being told by a foreign influence what to do with their land, not any hatred towards Jews or Judaism! This is a strictly political issue and has been falsely claimed in the media to be a never-ending Jewish vs Muslim issue.

Let's talk about today. Israel continues to violate UN resolutions one after another, with the whole world in anger except for the US which is subject to powerful AIPAC lobbyists in Washington which have our politicians into a bunch of sheep at the disposal of a foreign state. We're watching the American public being pulled into another war in the Middle East against Iran, when really Iran has showed any proof that they're currently developing nuclear weapons? Meanwhile, Israel is sitting on 300 nuclear weapons, and has shunned the UN of requests to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. The rest of the world has their jaw dropping, and you're complaining about a few bad things someone said about Israel's political actions? If Jewish students feel threatened being on UC campuses, then I encourage them to move to Texas where those evangelicals and their blind support of Israel will make them feel at ease again with the atrocities the Zionists are committing in the name of religion. I myself am Jewish and won't stand for this any longer. American Jews have every right to be upset, because Israel is taking all their tax dollars. We're slashing across the board, but the one area that no politician dares to mention is cutting some foreign funding to Israel, in fact we have added to it!

cleverguySB (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 11:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Vered,

I am a Natural Law kind of Guy. If rockets are shot at you for 11 months of 2012, at some point you are going to shoot back and rightfully so.

The poster that claims Israel and North American was stolen, must also believe that Homo Sapiens stole the Earth from the Neanderthal. I shake my head. Everything on earth has been taken from someone else, its called Natural Law and no matter what mental games you wish to play, in the end, their will be Natural Law staring you in the eyes.

I also shake my head in this country, when I see the majority of elected Public Servants of Jewish decent advocate for the demise of the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution.

Given the history of the Jewish People, the ability of self defense should be Paramount, in the mindset.

The Country of Mexico runs deep with Jewish DNA, so many Spanish Jews fled Spain during the Spanish Inquisition in the late 1400's.

This has been going on for a very long time.

The educated world has again taken a path towards Socialism which will lead to Fascism, as Government tries to control their populations pre some Man made vision of Utopia, funny how this always fails.

As a Catholic I do not understand the all the Hate in the Middle East but I certainly agree that "anti Semitic" thought is on rise Worldwide.

Progressivism does not teach Critical Thinking but indoctrination which is what you are experiencing at UCSB.

Continue your quest of Critical Thought and if the Middle East does not turn itself into glass, maybe you can be the one to solve the very Complex Problem that Exists.

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 11:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Excerpt from this opinion piece: "It truly breaks my heart to say I’ve never felt so unsafe calling myself an American Jewish student in the UC system, one of the leading university systems in the world."

Dear author, please don't equate being an American Jewish student with being pro-Israeli. Do you feel disrespected because you're Jewish/Israeli, or because of your pro-Israeli and pro-Zionist political views? There are many of us Jews who are not pro-Israeli, and I don't appreciate that you're equating these two things as being one. This is a public university and you should allow for dissenting views to your political opinions. What you claim to be anti-semitism is an incorrect characterization, it's dissenting political views.

cleverguySB (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You're either in denial or not very "clever" if you think there are many dissenting views out at UCSB. It's one way, full lib left all the way. Anyone or anything approaching center or right on pretty much any topic is quickly labeled mean, racist, phobic, hateful, etc.

Scooter (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 1:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

At least we have plenty of information as to why some commenters are anti Semitic and how they justify their anti Semitism.
As soon as the other Arab states stop "occupying Palestinian Land" and contribute something to a two state solution we can make some progress. Yea, like that will happen...

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

UCSB is a hot bed of dissent. However you won't like what you hear because the general feeling is a pox on both houses, a sentiment I share.
In addition, Anti-Zionism is not the same as anti-Semitism. Zionism is an ideology, Semetic refers to an ethnic group. Therefore you have quite a number of evangelical "Christian" Zionists. But even their motives are less than honorable since they belive in order for Christ to come back, all Jews (in Israel at least) must perish.
So when Pat Robertson or any of the like advocate Zionists positions, know it's with murder in their hearts and leaves the question: "Who is the REAL Anti-Semite?"

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 3:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Agreed, KV. Anti-semitism and not agreeing with the policies of the Israeli government are two entirely different things.

I think the author plays the role of victim too easily.

Universities provide an academic environment for the free exchange and exploration of ideas. In fact, academic freedom of expression is a time-honored tradition in American higher education.

But as a member of the faculty or as a student, you have a serious responsibility to defend your ideas as rigorously as possible ... you can't just accuse the Israeli government of behaving like the Nazi regime, you have to draw the parallels and explain the correlations. And if you were able to do this without physically hurting anyone, and even if only a fraction of your theory holds water, everyone is better off for the discussion.

In summary, welcome to the world of higher education, Vered.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 6:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Exactly EB, you can't just make a statement in academia, you need supporting evidence or it's an "F'. In addition most students are open to new ideas- not adopting them necessarily but willing to know.
In addition I had more than a few Professors who self -identified as Jewish and they were and remain just as open to the facts and condemning of human rights abuses regardless who commits them.
The Jewish students I currently know seem to be having no problems (and I'm talking practitioners of the faith). In fact one girl is dating a Moroccan guy who practices Islam.
In the end we can argue and presnt fact after fact but the true victims of this mess are the people of Israel and Gaza (ect.) who are the ones who bleed and die for the egos of their so-called leaders.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 7:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think Clever-Guy's "shut up and move to Texas attitude" is sadly much more common at UCSB than most realize. People on the left love to think of themselves as "tolerant" but their actions are often no better than those they claim to despise.

Scooter (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 7:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Scooter, the same can easily be said of "Conservatives". Everybody thinks they're right (as in correct.) The continual "liberals this", "conservatives that" is just total generalized BS.
Greg Gandrud the local GOP head is probably more liberal on some issues than Larimar-Hall who is the local Dem head. the sooner we dispense with cookie cutter assumptions the closer to mutually beneficial solutions we'll be.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 8:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

: : Cleverguy writes:
"If Jewish students feel threatened being on UC campuses, then I encourage them to move to Texas where those evangelicals and their blind support of Israel will make them feel at ease again with the atrocities the Zionists are committing in the name of religion."

: : Scooter reads:
"I think Clever-Guy's "shut up and move to Texas attitude" is sadly much more common at UCSB than most realize."

binky (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 9:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

loonpt (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 12:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Both Hamas and the Israeli Right Wing Gov target civilians, I wish they'd both immolate and let their people live in peace.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 12:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)


"Religious states, whether Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, or whatever, have no place in the modern world."

banjo (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 8:04 a.m.

Did they have a rightful place in the past?

"We stole the land from the natives, and Israel stole the land from the Palestines, and they continue to steal to this day. We used the lame excuse of manifest destiny, and Israel used the excuse of divine will. As long as they continue to occupy the Palestinian land, there will be uproar, no matter how "generous" the Israeli government is."

residentsb (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 9:06 a.m.

Have you given this land back to the natives? According to your own logic, you should leave the U.S. at once. As for me, I'll acknowledge the injustice of Manifest Destiny and try to make the world a better place. The logistics of 200+million of us moving back to our ancestral homelands is simply too much.

"Progressivism does not teach Critical Thinking "
howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 11:29 a.m

Amen my verdant cohort, well said. I don't confuse progressive with liberalism. Two very different ways of thought.

I think Clever-Guy's "shut up and move to Texas attitude" is sadly much more common at UCSB than most realize. People on the left love to think of themselves as "tolerant" but their actions are often no better than those they claim to despise.

Scooter (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 7:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Scooter, the same can easily be said of 'Conservatives'. Everybody thinks they're right (as in correct.) The continual 'liberals this', 'conservatives that' is just total generalized BS."

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2012 at 8:44 p.m.

Both Scooter and Ken_ make good points.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 1:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

All too true we can't turn back the clock but we can build a better today and tomorrow.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 1:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For Hammas led terrorist to launch rockets from a residential area and then expect Israel not to return fire or to just accept the cowardly attack of using civilians as human shields is crazy. I back Israel's decision to retaliate even if that means Palestine's people who support a Terrorist State by voting in their last election for Hammas to lead them, knowing their reputation for cowardly attacks, suicide bombings, Vehicle Improvised Explosive Devices on Civilian's, and execution's against anyone who does not believe in their twisted version of Islam. American's spends way too much time on their cell-phone's, twittering and viewing the sorrowful images with captions of Muslim women crying over bodies of the children who were used by their Hammas led Government as human shields; to realize that these photo's are meant to sway our commitment to protect and support Israel. It just floors me how quick Hammas wanted a cease fire when Israel retaliated instead of backing down to the attack; like, "Oops! They aren't holding back despite the fact that we are using our people as shields; quick, strike a deal before they move the tanks on us!".

dou4now (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 6:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No matter how sympathetic anyone is to Hamas or any other terrorist organization, and they were dully elected while still holding fast to the belief that Israel had no right to exist, the fact is they shield their military and armaments with civilians. Just as Al Qaeda put their installations in neighborhoods and Mosques as well; there is no defense for first doing this and then decrying the loss of women and children.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 7:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

@howgreenwasmyvalley's use of ironic foreshadowing was quite clever.

Kingprawn (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 7:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Israel's List of Broken World Records:
Israel, a country the size of New Jersey can only claim to the following achievements:
Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine.
Israel holds the world record in the number of towns & villages it ethnically cleansed (500+).
Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported (4 million+).
Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished (60 thousand+).
Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation (500+ times).
Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes (100+ times).
Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country (50 thousand+).
•Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country (250 thousand+).
Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country (50 thousand+).
Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other country (200 thousand+).
Israel has only two countries to defend its policies in the United Nations these countries are America & Micronesia The population for Micronesia as of June 2008 is only 108000.
Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees.
Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries.
Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly steals the water of its neighbors.
Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment.
Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment.
Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it.
Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination.
Israel stands unique in using human shields in military operations.
Israel is the only one that has legalized torture.
Israel is the only country on Earth that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands.
Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial.
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints.
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel holds the world record in the number of curfew its installed on the Palestinians.
Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints deny women access to hospitals, they give birth alone and babies usually die.
Israel is exceptional in being the only country on Earth whose checkpoints denies patients access to hospitals, and they end up dying.
Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints are where wedding parades come to an end.

lakshmana (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Israel is the only country on Earth who checkpoints school children, denies them access to school, and puts an end to their classes
Israel is one of two countries that, against International Law, use cluster bombs and depleted uranium bombs America is the other. what a surprise huh?.
Israel holds the world record in the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the army.
Israel despite being a rich country, receives the highest financial aid, more than the sum aid to all sub-Saharan Africa!.

lakshmana (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 11:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks for listing Israel's sins, a comparative list of Hamas' crimes would have given you more credibility than being just another idealogue.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@lakahmana

"Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly steals the water of its neighbors."

So the 1930's Water Projects on the Colorado River, see Hoover Dam, that destroyed the Gulf of California did not steal the water from Baja Mexico?

"Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination."

Did not the President of the United States assassinate an American Citizen in Yemen (2011), a scumbag but still a Citizen? Does not D.C. have a Kill List, in place today?

"Israel is one of two countries that, against International Law, use cluster bombs and depleted uranium bombs America is the other. what a surprise huh?."

Syria just used Russian made Cluster Bombs that killed innocent children, I guess thats #3?

As a non fundamentalist Christian, I try to use a little objectiveness in my opinion of Israel, but that is probably because my Father had an all expenses paid visit to the Death Camps during WWII, saw the results and the horror first hand.

So much Hate.

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 12:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I agree with residentSB. It's not the Israeli people at all, it's strictly the Israeli government and it's this strict brand of religious nationalism called Zionism."
-- cleverguySB
That's pretty hard to believe. How did that government get into power - right, by being elected by the Israeli people.

"Jewish students have a right to feel threatened on UC campuses."
-- lilyrocks
"American Jews have every right to be upset, because Israel is taking all their tax dollars."
-- cleverguySB
Irrelevant. Nobody has even hinted that Jews don't have a "right" to their feelings.

" Now the extreme Right in Israel, led by Bebe, want to keep the lands that do not morally belong to them."
-- DrDan
That's an interesting phrase, DrDan. How do you determine the morality of land ownership?

"I also shake my head in this country, when I see the majority of elected Public Servants of Jewish decent advocate for the demise of the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution."
-- howgreenwasmyvalley
Huh? That's one of the most ridiculous claims made in all of the Indy comments section.

"Continue your quest of Critical Thought and if the Middle East does not turn itself into glass, maybe you can be the one to solve the very Complex Problem that Exists."
-- howgreenwasmyvalley
One of the sure signs that you're dealing with a wingnut is the use of Extraneous Capitalization.

" Anyone or anything approaching center or right on pretty much any topic is quickly labeled mean, racist, phobic, hateful, etc."
-- Scooter
Don't let facts interfere with your opinions, Scooter. https://orgsync.com/42500/chapter

"False premise."
-- loonpt
He's right. Anyone who tries to find good guys and bad guys in this mess is on a fool's errand. Both sides have much to atone for.

"... they were dully elected ..."
-- italiansurg
Ha! That's funny. italiansurg finally gets one right. :-)

Finally, Kingprawn, I'll repeat what I wrote to loonpt because it especially applies to you: Anyone who tries to find good guys and bad guys in this mess is on a fool's errand.

SezMe (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@lakshmana, you lose all credibility with your first comment vs. Israel in your first long long post: "Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine." Firstly, "Palestine" was a League of Nations (after WW I) "Mandate" which had never been in existence in its own right. The Roman Empire called this region Palestina, and its later largely Arab/Moslem population fell under various under large territorial groupings, most recently the Ottoman Empire.
"Israel" as a political entity could not have "destroyed Palestine" since Israel didn't exist again until 1947/48...
The West Bank territories, including Jericho, were seized by war in 1967, but only AFTER Israel was attacked by various neighboring Arab states. Obama has asked for Israel to come back to the 1967 line and accept a Two-State solution.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 1:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, Sez! What incredible proof/fact that diverse political thought is widespread and encouraged at UCSB. Thanks!

Scooter (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@SezMe, I suppose "morally" wasn't appropriate, so I'll say that the post WW II Allies (through the UN) in their political and moral wisdom chose to create a new Near Eastern political state called "Israel" in 1947/48. Whatever their lack of wisdom in drawing black lines on old maps, the UN did not include the fertile Palestinian-Arab (and Druze) lands WEST of the Jordan River in the boundaries of the new state.
The American slow genocide of peoples in western North America doesn't give us the moral right to hold these areas, including California, but we enjoy them just the same.
POLITICALLY, and not so much morally, the Israeli state should not act like a l9th century European empire and colonize in lands not awarded them in 1947/48 (itself a very controversial decision). The West Bank, Jericho, Hebron, and so on belong ethnically, economically, politically, and ethically on their own under Abbas and the Palestinian Authority. We ought to strengthen Abbas against Hamas in Gaza. The angle is that if the Israeli state wants to call itself a western=style democracy, how can it continue to bring in more and more Arab Palestinians who are not Jewish: will they get full rights and the vote?? Obviously not. Thus, Jimmy Carter's claim of Palestinian apartheid. As CleverGuy writes, "please don't equate being an American Jewish student with being pro-Israeli" -- plenty of American Jews agree with J Street and want Israel to pull back to defensible 1967 borders...trade land for peace, as Ehud Barak once offered Arafat (he was such an idiot he refused this great deal).
And of course being anti-religious Zionism doesn't mean you are anti-Semitic!

DrDan (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

We are born of jewish blood not israeli, do not confuse the two.

cmetzenberg (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 2:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There are many sub-themes in this thread.

The one that interests me is the notion that a Jewish student who supports the actions of the Israeli government can feel "threatened" while attending UC.

This is not a new complaint. Recall the 2009 incident in which two Jewish UCSB students complained about sociology Professor William Robinson's class notes. In those notes, Robinson, himself a Jew, drew comparisons between the Israeli government's ghettoization of Gaza and Nazi Germany's ghettoization of Polish Jews in Warsaw:

http://www.independent.com/news/2009/...

That debate centered on the appropriateness of Robinson's notes but it also shared similar overtones with Vered's letter ... she feels "unsafe" because a fellow student made a comparison that was presumably similar to Robinson's.

We can learn from the Robinson case ... there was a vigorous debate on both sides by academics within UCSB and outside organizations (e.g. Anti Defamation League). Even two years after Robinson's case was closed, there continued to be debate:

http://www.independent.com/news/2011/...

Based on what happened in the Robinson case, I hardly think accusations like Scooter's (UCSB is "full lib left all the way") has any merit.

Controversy is at the heart of academic inquiry.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 2:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@sez,

"I also shake my head in this country, when I see the majority of elected Public Servants of Jewish decent advocate for the demise of the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution."
-- howgreenwasmyvalley
Huh? That's one of the most ridiculous claims made in all of the Indy comments section.

I will throw out a few names, Senators Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Charles Schumer and Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

Now you show me names of elected Public Servants of Jewish decent that Publicly support the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution.

I think that is what the JPFO complains about.

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

She doesn't list any reason why she should feel threatened on or off campus by other students ect, it's just a "feeling" (perhaps her paradigm of any country being divine saints cracking?)
Saying you're threatened, feel unsafe ect is a serious accusation yet she provides no evidence to illustrate why she or anyone would feel that way.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 3:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hopefully, Vered will learn that truth will overcome fear. Especially in an academic environment, that means critically analyzing the other student's opposing thesis (the comparison of Israel with the Nazi regime) and constructing a defensible counter-thesis.

Vered might want to stop by UCSB sociology professor Harold Marcuse's office to discuss where historical comparisons of Israel and Nazi Germany are useful and where they are not. Marcuse discusses this in the context of Robinson's case here:

http://sb4af.wordpress.com/2009/07/19...

By the way, Professor Robinson was cleared of all charges by the Academic Senate.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 4:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken_Volok,

I am lucky enough to be average. If I was a member of an ethnic group that for 1000's of years was subjected to slavery, persecution, and finally genocide, I personally would be sensitive to people declaring my soldiers the same as Nazi's.

I would be in the "never again" camp, and really threatened by those that would not understand my reason to want to survive as an ethnic person.

Do you have a solution for Israel? Is there a course they can plot to stop the rockets? What should be their position or should they just become dust in the wind?

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 5:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dear How Green
I also fall into that category of historical oppression, persecution ect. Any human being should be in the never again camp. I'd rather die myself that let anything like that happen again.
That said, I choose to err with Jesus and Gandhi and continue with the attitude of an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
The peoples of Gaza and Israel are both being held hostage by leaders more interested in vengeance than an amicable solution.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 7:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@DrDan, I concur ... the borders just prior to the Six Day War that started on June 5, 1967 would be a good basis for a two-state solution.

However, how the Palestinians would be expected to run a country that consists of three disconnected regions (West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights) is a mystery to me. Also, Jerusalem could be a sticky point. If one is really interested in peace, I think Jerusalem has to be shared. But I've heard Netanyahu imply that is unacceptable. Finally, I wonder whether Netanyahu could hold his coalition together, especially the far-right wing, if he entered an agreement to give up the (arguably illegal) settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem - some of which were built under his watch.

I would also note the 1967 War was started by Israel, not Syria or Egypt as you imply:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

But at this point, that seems academic. Israel, Egypt, and Syria were primed for conflict and all have had their turns in throwing the first punch in their multiple wars.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2012 at 7:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gaza is a wretched hole of a tiny place, evacuate it and then you have only the Golan and West Bank, the latter by far the most important. Israel and the IDF want the Golan to prevent Syrian shelling...Golan can be negotiated.
As the UN called for in 1947/48, Jerusalem should be a truly international city, capital of neither Israel (stay in Tel Aviv) nor a new Palestinian state (Hebron for them). When Netanyahu calls "giving up" Jerusalem unacceptable, HE needs to be reminded that getting Jerusalem was never part of political Zionism and Ben-Gurion et al. did not press for this. Only what Gershom Gorenberg calls THE ACCIDENTAL EMPIRE after the 6-Day 1967 War led to some right-wing Israelis insisting Jerusalem itself had to be in eretz Yisroel and also to become the capital did religious Zionism intrude into politics. If a smart Israeli general hadn't stopped them, some extremist Israelis would have taken down the Dome of the Rock on Temple Mount in June 1967!
'Land for peace' should be the mantra, repeated again and again. KV is quite correct in the Gandhi quote about an eye for an eye making the whole world blind. Who is truly thinking about the young, the children, the children of the future in this mess?
Netanyahu and Ayatollah Khameini NEED each other to affirm the crazy BS they each hold on to: N. that they are all out to get us all the time (not true), and Kh. that Israel wants to nuke or attack Iran. Why let them play their dangerously insane game? Hamas is a tool of Khameini in some respects and does not respect the right of Israel to exist.
EB you are technically correct about who started the 6-Day War, but it's pretty complex as M.D. Oren shows in his magisterial SIX DAYS OF WAR (Oxford 2002), and even this scholar (and Israeli) notes sorting out exactly who started it is almost impossible. E.g., the infamous Samu' incident of 9/13/66 when an Israeli force "invaded" the West Bank (then part of Jordan) and destroyed 120 Arab houses, killed 15 Arab Legionnaires, wounding 54..and Israeli forces lost their commander and had ten paratroopers wounded. While this might seem minor in today's horrendous context, when Israel will blow into Gaza and kill hundreds, this Sept. 1966 incident was an outright invasion of another country by Israel. But it goes on and on, and the place was a tinderbox then as it is now. It's a bit facile to state Israel started it or Jordan/Egypt started the 6-Day War.
From that war came the Yom Kippur War, the Munich massacre of 1971 (I was in Munich that Black Tues.) and Black September, the Lebanon War, the expansion of the wholly illegal Jewish settlements (COLONIES!) in the West Bank, and debate about the future of Jerusalem...the intifada, the Oslo Accords.. and so on.
Let's get back to the status quo ante of 1967, and like Lincoln (=Obama I'd hope) wheel and deal and set up two states side by side... tough, I know! Land for peace.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 5:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

EB-If you are using wiki for your basis on the 6 day war you had better do some more reading. As is often the case with wiki their opinion is incomplete and wildly slanted. In my field the wiki definition is not even close but most of us chuckle as it is another example of pop wisdom and the internet only puking back what is put in. Can you please explain why the other Arab states are not offering up any of their land for a two state solution?
lakshmana-You are correct; if only Israel was not on that tiny, crappy piece of land, being productive beyond their resources, the middle east would be nirvana and all of the other dysfunctional Arab states would be models of democracy and equality for women; the constant internal killing, terrorism, and oppression against one group or another would immediately cease...

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 6:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I got this email,

"The user lakshmana sent the following message to you via The Santa Barbara Independent:

"Genocide is still genocide. What's being done to the regular Palestinians is the same. The Israelis who were in Germany missed the lesson."

It accuses Israel of Genocide, so I looked up the Population of the Gaza Strip.

In 2000 I find this article claiming 1.1 million people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/24/wo...

Wikipedia, I know not the best source, shows 1.6 million people in 2011.

Looks to me that the population of Gaza is growing.

I maybe missing something but does not one expect the population to decrease in Genocide.

All this Hate without thoughtful reflection, I surely hope "lakshmana" is not a UCSB student and just the type of student that Vered has reason to fear.

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 1:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"EB you are technically correct about who started the 6-Day War, but it's pretty complex as M.D. Oren shows ..."
-- DrDan

Yes, I anticipated some readers might get prickly on this one technical point. That is why I added the moderating paragraph following my link ... which I trust you read. Had you not first stated who started 1967 War. I would not have brought it up. It really is facile.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 1:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken_Volok,

I greatly admire Gandhi but he sort of won the War and lost the Peace, which troubled him greatly.

The Brits left, but India and Pakistan have Nuclear Tipped missiles pointed at each other today. Gandhi's wisdom and passive nature could not remove the Hate in the hearts of his own people.

I see the same in the Middle East, how do you discuss rational solutions, I thank you DrDan, when Hate blinds the Mind?

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"howgreenwasmyvalley," it is a very easy bit of arithmetic to show how a population could grow over a decade even with a "genocide":

:: Total number of babies > number of 'genocide' victims (and other deaths)

More importantly, what is it about the private, third-party-delivered email from "lakshmana" which rises to the level of "All this Hate without thoughtful reflection" and beyond merely stating a position of which you do not agree?

binky (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"If you are using wiki for your basis on the 6 day war you had better do some more reading"
-- Italiansurg

As far as I can tell, there is nothing factually wrong with Wikipedia's assertion on who started the Six Day War.

Italiansurg ... Show me what information you have that says otherwise!!!

In "Anonymous Declares War on Israel" from last week's edition, Indy reader "Hodgmo" supplied a link to ProCon.org. I checked that site ***prior*** to my original post and they corroborate Wikipedia:

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/...

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/...

The Pro/Con website is non-partisan and the Annenberg Center describes it as such:

http://factchecked.org/2010/resources...

An additional check at the Guardian's website is also consistent with both the Wikipedia citation and ProCon.org:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/galle...

As I stated in my original post, there were already moves towards conflict (notably by Egypt) prior to Israel throwing the first punch. But pre-emptive or not, it was the first punch.

More important than this, however, is that Israel is still occupying land it won in the 1967 War. The subjagation of the people in those lands is something Israel is widely condemned for and is one reason the '67 borders are a good basis for a two-state solution.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 2:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Wikipedia, I know not the best source, shows 1.6 million people in 2011."
-- howgreenwasmyvalley

It's commendable that you make an effort to find good sources. I try to do the same.

The thing about Wikipedia is ... citations are written and vetted by multiple authors. Some authors are experts in their field. Other experts are not.

What to do? Treat Wikipedia like any other source!!!

- Check the references in the WiIkipedia citation.
- A good Wikipedia citation has linkable references you can vet yourself.
- Check other sources to see if they corroborate Wikipedia.

Readers have to vet Wikipedia just like any other source.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 2:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I got a superfluous if not hostile private mssg from lakshana as well.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 2:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Example: Wikipedia citation for "Gaza Strip"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

The first paragraph says:

"The population of Gaza Strip is about 1.7 million people.[2]"

If you click on the reference [2], it links to the CIA Factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicati...

There you can see the CIA says the Gaza Strip's population is ... 1,710,257 (July 2012 est.).

So the Wikipeda citation did an excellent job.

My only quibble is they left the 2011 population estimate in the summary section on the upper-right side of the page. That's why Wikipedia deserves more public support so they can have more editors.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Until the humans on earth figure out the benefits of arithmatic, they are doomed as a species. Addition (love, knowledge), multiplication (sex, 1-10 child maximum?) vs. subtraction (war, murder) and division (religion, racism, hate).

spacey (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Terrestrial Jerusalem, an Israeli group, monitors events in Jerusalem that can affect the peace process:

http://www.t-j.org.il/AboutTJ.aspx

According to TJ, there's been a huge increase in settlement construction in East Jerusalem during the last two years under Netanyahu. Their projections indicate the Jewish settler population will increase by 23% in East Jerusalem by end of 2013!

Detailed maps show how the settlements to the south are cutting off the large population of Palestinians in Bethlehem from any future Palestinian state in the West Bank. Also shown are other Jewish settlements under construction that would make implementation of a two-state solution difficult:

http://www.t-j.org.il/Portals/26/imag...

The right-wingers under Netanyahu are no dummies. They know time is on their side and they are quickly taking more land from any future Palestinian state.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How "academic" & "irrelevant" these issues are. The two questions that actually matter to us are, does Israel deserve US support, and, why should USA go down the Palestine vortex?

Israel is an ally in name only. They don't do things for us, they only do things to us. Namely, stabbing us in the back, and stabbing us in the front.

The Jewish tribe has rigged our political system and mass media. Bravo. Americans who think that being a sheep amounts to idyllic afternoons on sunny green pastures should review the traditional uses of sheep. Hello.

Adonis_Tate (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 8:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oops, "rigged" was a badly chosen word... it's just that the final effect simulates an effect following manipulation at an early stage. What's with the public discourse abstaining from the obvious? What's with debating presidential candidates falling over themselves to outdo their opponent with protestations of passionate love for Israel?

A better word would lie somewhere on the continuum between "taken advantage of" and "hijacked."

But don't despair of the status quo, ovine herd! Take one letter A out of "baah" & you've got YOUR word. Easy peasy. Just see how fast the situation changes when you (for one) defy "The Rules" as a self-interested human should. American Spring, no problem!

Adonis_Tate (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2012 at 10:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@EB thanks for the correction re who started the '67 War, but even the Israeli ambassador to the US, the aforementioned M. Oren in his book, notes that figuring this out precisely and deeply is too difficult... I did check the wiki site. So yeah, it's facile, and the deeper issue is how to bring these two peoples -- THEIR GOVERNMENTS -- back from the brink.
@Adonis, cannot agree "The Jewish tribe has rigged our political system and mass media" -- we Americans have been "sheep" in so many ways, why lay it all on that tribe, eh? How about those who voted for war criminal Bush in the 2004 election? the 48% for Romney in the latest one?
war is coming there.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 4:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten!"

equus_posteriori (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

eine Mauer has been tried, and it doesn't work, it didn't work in Berlin, and it doesn't work in Israel or between USA and Mexico.
More illegal Israeli settlements (colonies!): http://entertainment.verizon.com/news...
When will the provocations, yes from both sides (the Hamas rockets into Israel), stop??

DrDan (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 9:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

“Ich bin ein Berliner” grafitti on the West Bank barrier:

http://www.4thmedia.org/2012/05/29/wa...

Even Israelis like Tov Roy, the linked article's author, recognize the parallels between Israel's occupied territories and the Warsaw ghetto.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 11:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

EB-I was never implying that your diligence was wrong or slanted; you always make an effort to be comprehensive. My view, after studying this issue for many years, is that both sides were at fault depending on their own interests. The Russians lied to create foment, the other Arab states egged things on hoping to push things to a conflict, and the Israelis complied by going along. And yes while I do not blame Israel for responding, I admit my bias because I would have ultimately protected myself against a concerted effort to wipe my interest off of the face of the earth.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 1:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I say the British begat all this, they should be the ones on the constant crucible not the US.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 1:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

At last WooWoo provides someone we can all despise.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 9:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Denying The Holocaust is the same as believing the Magic Bullet Theory.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2012 at 11:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why then, did the Soviets and the U.S. agree that the holocaust occurred even while they were mortal enemies?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 3:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

My great uncle, now dead, was captured by the Nazi's in northern Italy and taken to a camp; he escaped while serving the Nazi's away from the camp during the day and then made his way back to the lake region of northern Italy over a year+ time. I guess when he arrived back to the family, telling explicit tales of mass murder of Jew's and Gypsy's that he witnessed, the Jew propaganda machine had indoctrinated him in the mid 1940's while crossing the mountains alone to make it home. He told me these same stories when I was a little boy in the early 60's. But keep writing WooWoo, it's always good to know that there are nutjobs from every political spectrum and how lucky the rest of us are to have our brains intact.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 6:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, I see that Neal is back.

zappa (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 7:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

@WooWoo,

My Father an American GI, he saw the camps, I guess he lied to me. I remember reading a special Life Magazine edition in the 60's had 8.5x11 pictures taken, I guess it was all staged.

In the 70's we studied the John Birch Society and the American Communist Party, for a college class, guess what both far right/left preached the same garbage that you are.

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 9:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I've never heard the American Communist Party attributed with Holocaust denial, "howgreenwasmyvalley," and in light of their rabid, long-term, and well-published anti-Fascism it seems far-fetched.

Please point me to a source for that claim if you have one.

- - -

Special to Mr. "WooWoo":

Please weigh in on some of the conspiracies you've left untouched:

- Bilderberg Group
- PanAm 103
- Trilateral Commission
- Vril Society
- Phoebus Cartel
- Contrails
- Smart Meters
- Bohemian Grove
- Vaccinations
- Fluoridation
- the CIA and HIV
- Grey Aliens & Area 51

binky (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey WOO,
How do you explain Adolph Eichman's quote, "I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction." Was that all part of teh conspiracy?

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 10:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's obviously a very sick and deluded person.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Google Neil (spelled it wrong first time) Baker/UCSB.
Should be obvious from there.

zappa (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 11:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch ...

Netanyahu authorized yesterday the building of yet another 3,000 homes in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem:

http://www.latimes.com/news/world/wor...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/m...

Very soon, Israel's settlements will carve up East Jersualem and the West Bank so much that a two-state solution will be virtually impossible. See maps here:

http://www.t-j.org.il/Portals/26/imag...

We talk about a two-state solution here in the west but it seems Israel isn't interested.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Better the Israelis tortured Eichmann than me, he wouldn't have gotten so far as video testimony. Right now I'm loving the scene in Ingloreous Basterds in which Hitler gets pumped full of lead.
Face it WooWoo, you won't accept any evidence but accepting the reality of the Holocaust would rob you of feeling special and superior.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 11:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If all of UCSB is a disgrace, I just flushed WooX2 down the toilet.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 12:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If it's so bad WooWoo leave.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/227215

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 12:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It was your own words, not the "UCSB Mafia" that dooms you to obscurity and scorn.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 1:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Woo Woo,
Not that reality is important to you but, The Eichman quote was made in 1945. That was years before he was brought to justice by Israel.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Neil Baker is back at it again, proving his complete mental imbalance. Just read the OCD dripping from his delusional Woo Woo profile.

Seriously---dude---no one cares about your little Narcissistic problems. Why not take a nice little knitting class or take up bottle collecting and go away. Loony as a whackadoodle-woowoo.

Draxor (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've visited Dachau twice, FloB, and other death camps...I've interviewed Germans who were alive at the time, the Holocaust happened...let's not give WooWoo any more space or credence...
back at the ranch...Israel is expanding the illegal settlements, I mean colonies, in her illegal empire...

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Please stop responding to Woo Woo. He is clearly in pain and needs help, not replies to his insane comments.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2012 at 4:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Since there are no blood DNA samples correlating to the slaughter alleged to have been committed during the Spanish Inquisition, or the killings attributed to Genghis Khan or Tamerlane, I will have to assume these stories are hoaxes. I'm sure the Romans probably gave Boudicca a warm welcome as well, because there is no physical evidence supporting those revisionist Celts. Also, nobody I've known who ever went to Paris ever told me there were guillotines nor severed heads rolling about so Marat must of been a fine French fellow.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 2:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I would also submit that is is well known that Hitler implemented the scorched earth policy so as to remove any evidence that could have been useful to the enemy.

Having said all this, the one thing I agree on with Woo Woo is that hate speech laws are not a good thing. All they do is give credibility--even undeserved--to those who are prosecuted under these laws. What revisionists and racists say may be offensive to us, but it is up to us to stand up to them with truth rather than censorship, otherwise they win.

billclausen (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 3:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey woowoowoowoo-My uncle is not conveniently dead, he died from old age much like the vast majority of the WWII generation.
EB-On a serious note, if you want to excoriate Israel about a two state solution as least be a little honest and admit that the entire remainder of the Arab world has done nothing to forward this idea; worse yet, they have a ton of land to let go of without bothering anything or any body...

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

@binky,

We actual drove to Pasadena to hear the JBer's in the flesh and also to downtown SmelLA to hear the Commies, both parties gave their Conspiracy Theories of Government, sounded the same. We asked questions after each presentation. I didn't keep the notes or literature for all these years but the image in my mind is that they both sounded like lunatics preaching the same garbage it was surreal in how closely it matched.

They sounded like woowoo.

howgreenwasmyvalley (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 11:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

much more interesting than the inane rants of one I won't name (hint: rhymes with hoo hoo) is the fascinating book by Timothy Snyder: BLOODLANDS: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin (2010). In this seminal book he certainly acknowledges the fact of the Holocaust, something this writer and historian will not debate with yahoos, but Snyder also shows "that the vast majority of Jews killed in the Holocaust never saw a concentration camp." [p383] Thus, many more Jews (and millions more, like Ukrainians and Polish upper classes) were shot or whatever than were gassed in centralized locations like Auschwitz or Bergen Belsen or Treblinka. The lack of gas ovens is hardly proving of anything, and all debates centered on death camp deaths tend to miss the point. At the notorious death camp Floss (or FloB), mostly killed were German so-called traitors and Russian officers, over 80,000. The crematoria made sure there were no remains to be exhumed.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I hate us.

WooWoo (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 12:21 p.m. (

Woo Woo, here are some pictures of Nazi gas chambers taken with good cameras. WARNING: These images are disturbing. http://search.babylon.com/?q=Nazi+Gas...

As for Frank Collin, I (like him) am from Chicago and knew about him when I was a kid from the stories my dad told me. Also, one of my dad's closest friends had a run-in with Nazis in Skokie, (which is right near Chicago) when the Nazis were marching through Skokie. Of course, Rudolf Hess alleged at Nuremberg while on trial that the Jews had the ability to hypnotize people, so maybe my dad was hypnotized, and maybe his friend was too. Maybe the friend imagined he got out of his car and flattened the Nazi who was blocking his way. Frank Collin is half Jewish and maybe he hypnotized himself...maybe we're all hypnotized and you're right. Is my last name Clausewitz?...

billclausen (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 3:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Also, what are your thoughts on the genocides in Cambodia, Darfur, et al? What is the difference between the evidence presented for those genocides vs. the Nazi genocide?

billclausen (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 4:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

While renewable energy has been a colossal waste of money, woowoo proves that you can get more out of something than was ever put in-The Perpetual Motion Machine and Fusion Reactor all rolled into one.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
December 2, 2012 at 10:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Like Bandini Mtn

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 3, 2012 at 1:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bravo to you to write about this, especially in a liberal paper.

First of all when Moses led the Jewish people out of Egypt and brought them to the promise land he said to them ALL OF THIS LAND is yours, he did not say except this portion and oh yes not that portion over there either.

When they conquered the land they took it from the Canninites not the Palestinians. Pleases don't tell me that the Canninites were actually Palestinians that is factually incorrect. It would be saying that Moses led the Palestinians out of Egypt and not the Jews. How ridiculous.

People have either forgotten or were never taught in school that when the Roman Empire conquered Israel they enslaved the Jewish people and removed them off their land. This is the reason that there so few Jewish people living in the land of Israel.

Another way to look at it, is when America had slavery and when they were freed why didn't they go back to Africa? No means to do so, America like it or not was now their home. Did that stop them from wanting to go back...NO.

The Palestinians are a fictitious people. They are Jordanians plain and simple. If Jordan would help out and let their own people on their own land.

They have no right to this land it belongs to the Jewish people.

tntwalkers (anonymous profile)
December 3, 2012 at 3:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So anybody who converts to Judaism can vote in Israel's elections?

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 3, 2012 at 4:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Jordan" is also thus a fictitious state, tnt. When you write "they have no right to this land it belongs to the Jewish people" you lose me entirely. Yes, the Israelis (let's avoid the term "Jewish People") have a right to the land handed them by the UN/USA/UK in 1947/48, but certainly not beyond the pre Six-Day War (1967) borders.
Go ahead, call the Palestinians a fictitious people. But they are humans, with various cultures, usually Islamic (but there are many Arab Christians, Maronites, Druze, etc. etc.), and for many their ancestors lived there a long time. I won't debate timetables. The two-state solution would have the independent Palestinian State with a capital at Ramallah or Hebron. In the best scenario, Jerusalem remains an independent international city (as UN stated it should be in 1947/48), with the Israeli capital in Tel Aviv or nearby.
On the other hand, it's outrageous to equate anti religious Zionism with anti-Semitism, and this isn't the first time good ol Das has whiffed..vote him out.

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 3, 2012 at 5:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

By the"logic" of the latest troll on this thread, tntwalkers, every nation on earth is "fictitious."

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 3, 2012 at 5:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a regular participant in these threads I'd like to apologize to Ms. Hazanchuk for the abnormally sick turn this took. I hope you realize that most commentators here, while we at times disagree, sometimes often and usually passionately none of us subscribe anywhere near the level of sickness that manifested.
I guess it's kind of like Obama's election, some real ugly came out of the woodworks which is not all reflective of our community, including UCSB.

Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
December 3, 2012 at 8:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I bailed on this thread when, as Bugs Bunny famously first said just before the close of WW2, it missed the left at Alburquerque.

EastBeach (anonymous profile)
December 3, 2012 at 11:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bail the thread, folks

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 4, 2012 at 6:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To those who haven't, you must read @WooWoo's bio to understand what's happening here.

Kingprawn (anonymous profile)
December 4, 2012 at 8 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm assuming by the sheer number, length and tone of your posts that methamphetamine or some other stimulant is what happened. You had to figure out what to do with 72-96 sleepless hours.

Kingprawn (anonymous profile)
December 4, 2012 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Woo Woo, I find the life and death of Hypatia of Alexandria equal to those males you listed in the pantheon of ill-fated heroes/sheroes! So dynamic is her place in history that I can only submit this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

Now back to an important discussion on an important historical event, with apologies that I digressed.

salsipuedes (anonymous profile)
December 4, 2012 at 7:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To all the @WooWoo haters: Are you not entertained?

Kingprawn (anonymous profile)
December 4, 2012 at 9:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

WooHoo to Kingprawn, no haters here, too little time....& this really has plenty to do with Vered's topic, righton?!

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 5, 2012 at 8:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

(This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of use policy.)

rstein9 (anonymous profile)
December 5, 2012 at 8:49 a.m.

Religion drags humanity down. It is dumb nonsense from yesteryear. Grow up humans!

Riceman (anonymous profile)
December 5, 2012 at 9:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"...this really has plenty to do with Vered's topic, righton" @DrDan

We're all here for different reasons. Your reasons are clear. Mine should be as well. If not I'll remind you that I'm here for entertainment. @WooWoo's comments are the most interesting and entertaining comments in this thread, hands down.

Kingprawn (anonymous profile)
December 5, 2012 at 10:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"we" [you] have proved nothing, but you do entertain Kingprawn and that's why he likes fooling around on the thread... rstein is so into it he gets kicked off...too much emotion

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 5, 2012 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Holocaust is the most documented event in human history. Only someone with serious issues would rant and rave about it being a hoax. I am not entertained by an individual melting down on the Independent's comment section. I think that the people that run the Independent should look seriously at their policy of letting any disturbed individual go off ad nauseum.

Herschel_Greenspan (anonymous profile)
December 5, 2012 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@WooWoo:

Please consider taking up Holodomor affirmation instead of Holocaust denial. That ought to be radical enough, even for you.

Also, extend your legs vertically and post under your Real_Name.

Adonis_Tate (anonymous profile)
December 6, 2012 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@WooWoo:

Please consider taking up Holodomor affirmation instead of Holocaust denial. That ought to be radical enough, even for you. OF COURSE Neuremburg testimony (for starters) was largely embroidered and somewhat fabricated by an ethnic group steeped in BS, according to Lewis Black (Schwartz) and only a few other truth-tellers. But they were gilding the lily... couldn't help themselves, ethnically. Nevertheless, it wasn't just typhus that piled up the corpses, Jewish and others. Fighting fire with fire may backfire. But I won't judge you if your sense of justice allows for that. It's self-defeating, though, when the "good guys" have been identified to the ovine mob (shameless, witless @#%$&*!).

You're already on track, citing Jewish pre-eminence in the commie revolution. Literature nobelist Solzhenytsin's on board, of course, although his last book may never be offered on Amazon. Censorship, white-washing and revisionism have a powerful backing.

Also, extend your legs vertically and post under your Real_Name. Eff 'em! It feels great, ha ha!

Adonis_Tate (anonymous profile)
December 6, 2012 at 8:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Doh! Lewis Black said only "If there's one thing Jews are really good at, it's [B.S.]." He said nothing about Neuremburg. Sorry about the ambiguity there.

Just googled Neil Baker, & see that he's stood on his hind legs plenty.

Apropos conspiracy "awareness": "And then I realized--like I was shot...like I was shot with a diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead." - Colonel Kurtz. But reality is more like dove shot, speckling but not penetrating human skulls.

Adonis_Tate (anonymous profile)
December 6, 2012 at 9:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The headline from and article from the NYT today about those fun loving, peace loving, Hamas knuckleheads:

Leader Celebrates Founding of Hamas With Defiant Speech
By STEVEN ERLANGER

Hamas's political leader vowed to build an Islamic Palestinian state on all the land of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
December 9, 2012 at 7:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The coin has two sides. For every fun-loving knuckle-headed Hamas, there's an equally fun and open-minded (but almost always better armed) Israeli

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-good...

If your keeping score, track the body count - Israel is way ahead.

There are well-meaning people working for peace and terrorists on both sides. No rational person can claim either 'side' has a higher moral ground.

hodgmo (anonymous profile)
December 9, 2012 at 8:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Yup hodgmo, now if only Hamas et al will acknowledge the right of Israel to even exist. On this point the situation is not a two way street my friend...

italiansurg (anonymous profile)
December 10, 2012 at 5:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Middle-East conflict associated with Israel is, without any reasonably informed doubt, a two-way street. Neither side is monolithic; there are those on both sides of the walls that want peaceful co-existence, eg, a two-state solution, and others on both sides that want to eliminate the other, consider their enemies to be sub-human, so feel their atrocities are justified.

Modern Israel was created and inserted in the region by the British and French, with at least American tacit approval. At first there was hope (eg, a signed agreement between Feisal and Weismann) for a reasonably peaceful Arab and Jewish coexistence in the region. But European colonial ambitions, and later the desperate need for persecuted European Jews to go somewhere, eroded the foundations of what might have been. In the end, land was taken by the Israelis (“stolen” according to Ben-Gurion) and the response by those dispossessed was understandably angry.

Unfortunately that anger has been used by extremists in neighboring Arab countries, and the rabid right in Israel, for their complementary goals of eliminating each other. Those desiring peace have been forced to the fringe.

hodgmo (anonymous profile)
December 10, 2012 at 6:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

OK, so Hamas still won't acknowledge Israel's right to exist (but Abbas of Pal. Authority do), and then Israel's fanatic "sacred landers" & third temple cranks slowly gobble up the diminishing West Bank further enraging all Palestinians and Arab Moslem. Colonization was done with by 1919!
No, it's not a two-way street since both sides' rational players have been forced to the fringe, as hodgmo states.
Here is the role for a reinvigorated Obama, to bring these knuckleheads to the table at a new Camp David (a la Clinton 2000, hoping for better results) and oblige compromises. We hate this role, but no one else can do it. Land for Peace, as Ehud Barak was gonna do in 2000. US can slow down aid to Israel and aid on military equipment to press the Israelis, and US can control Abbas (at least) I think. Perhaps Hamas (Gaza) can be eliminated or sidelined in some way, using force even.
Neither sides gets Jerusalem. See earlier posts.
Letting this thing run on as we have, since 1967 [that's the big year in this (6-Day War)], will hurt all concerned. I do think an Israeli attack on Iran (hell, and Hamas in Gaza, too) is imminent, the only question is will Netanyahu use his nukes to blast into the heavily protected bunker at Natanz? Will we supply in-air refueling??

DrDan (anonymous profile)
December 18, 2012 at 4:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

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