Santa Barbara police are still piecing together a bizarre series of possibly related events — including a carjacking, rollover accident, and potential fight — that took place two weeks ago. But while police continue to investigate, Judge George Eskin decided Wednesday morning that Augustine Cruz Jr., arrested after the incidents, violated the conditions under which Eskin reduced Cruz’s bail amount in an unrelated case. Cruz was able to post the lower bail a few months ago.
Cruz is facing charges of robbery and two counts of assault, with gang enhancements, for two brutal attacks in 2009 that left one of the victims in assisted living for a year, according to prosecutor Hans Almgren. Cruz, who is also one of 30 people named in the city’s gang injunction, is one of two men facing charges in that case. In February, Eskin, in granting the lowered bail amount of $100,000 — down from $500,000 — said Cruz should only be at work or at home, should be subject to electronic monitoring, shouldn’t have any contact with the victims or with Eastside gang members, and can’t go near the Franklin Center. He was also subject to searches.
According to police testimony, Cruz was potentially in violation of at least a couple of those stipulations the night of April 29 and early in the morning of April 30, though his involvement in the incidents is still unknown. In testimony Tuesday, Officer Tiffany Keller said she was on patrol the night in question when she received several calls within an hour’s time. Initially Keller responded to a report of a rollover traffic collision on South Canada Street. On her way to that location, she received another call of a stolen vehicle at 100 South Alisos Street. The description of the vehicle in each case were similar, and it was later determined the vehicle was indeed the same. Around the same time, there was a dispatch call of a fight, Keller said. Detective Ben Ahrens later detailed the reported disturbance, where five to six males were chasing after a car, which they attacked, breaking windows and severely damaging the vehicle.
According to Keller, three Hispanic males were seen fleeing the scene of the rollover, one wearing a checkered shirt and one wearing a shirt with numbers on it, like a jersey. After leaving the scene of the rollover and spending some time with the victim of the carjacking, Keller encountered three subjects — one of them wearing a jersey — near the intersection of Oak Drive and Salinas Place. Two were crossing the street, away from the third. Cruz was one of them, Keller testified, and he turned his head away from her as she asked him to stop. Another was later determined to be Ernesto Lopez, a known gang member, Keller said.
Keller could not get Cruz or the other man to stop running, but stopped Lopez, she said. Cruz was eventually tracked down to a creek area not far away, where he was hiding. He had an injury to his shoulder, Keller said, with “quite a bit of blood.” It was later determined the injury was likely the result of a stab wound.
No charges related to the April 29 incident have been filed, though police have recommended misdemeanor charges be filed against Cruz.
After the police testimony, defense attorney James Crowder presented a witness who testified she saw the people involved in the rollover incident and that neither person was Cruz, whom she knew.
Crowder also had Victor Rios, a professor at UCSB, take the stand to explain how Cruz was involved in a weekly program Rios holds at Casa de la Raza. The purpose of the program, Rios said, is to conduct research while also providing mentoring, tutoring, and connections to services. He said Cruz, 21, had been participating regularly and talked about wanting a job and getting enrolled back in school.
Several people, including Rios and Ricardo Venegas from the Franklin Center, wrote letters about their hopes and aspirations for Cruz, and his father testified that Cruz was working for him as a landscaper four days a week.
“It’s not what Mr. Cruz has been doing during the daytime that’s of concern to me,” Eskin said. The judge went on to say that he wouldn’t hold much of the night’s events — with details still so sketchy — against Cruz when he didn’t know how, if at all, Cruz was involved. But, the judge said, he would rely on the conduct Keller observed. The fact that Cruz was outdoors around midnight with known members of the Eastside gang, tried to run and hide from officers, and had somehow received a stab wound were all factors the judge considered, noting the conditions under which he released Cruz.
“Mr. Cruz has let himself down, let his family down, Mr. Crowder down, and his friends down, and you certainly let me down,” Eskin said to Cruz at the end of Wednesday’s hearing. “You just weren’t doing what we expected you to be doing.”
With that, Cruz was placed into custody by the bailiff and eventually taken to Santa Barbara County Jail. He will be back in court on June 29.
Related Links
- Two Suspected Gangmembers Arrested After Carjacking and Stabbing [ April 30, 2012 ]
- Bail Reduced for Assault and Robbery Suspect [ February 18, 2012 ]
If you've been involved in a crime, email crime@independent.com.


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Translation of the article:
"Crowder also had Victor Rios, a professor at UCSB, take the stand to explain how Cruz was involved in a weekly program Rios holds at Casa De La Raza. The purpose of the program, Rios said, is to conduct research"
Well, if gaathering statistics about gang criminals, the KNOWN stat is THEY'RE REPEAT OFFENDERS. Jeez, that was a no-brainer, didn't need a PhD for that kernel of wisdom.
"while also providing mentoring, tutoring, and connections to services."
Another way of saying "we'll hook you up w/ da homies ese! Think about it: A bunch of thugs sitting in a room, what do you think they're gonna do when they leave? Thuglife 4ever!
"He said Cruz, 21, had been participating regularly"
Can these be construed as gang meetings?
"and talked about wanting a job and getting enrolled back in school."
Getting a job is just to support the 40 oz. habit & MAYBE the baby mommy. Going to school is to recruit more soldiers.
Several people, including Rios and Ricardo Venegas from the Franklin Center, wrote letters about their hopes and aspirations for Cruz,"
Of course they have hopes, their jobs depends on that. Thing is this guy is gonna dash all their hopes w/ his lies of changing. It'll never happen.
"and his father testified that Cruz was working for him as a landscaper four days a week."
The contradiction lies in the statement that said "he talked about wanting a job." Yeah, maybe that cush job that pays $100k/year for doing nothing. Well, now he can get a job making them CA license plates.
This guy has fooled everybody who gave him the opportunity. Yeah, he's a good boy, he don't hurt nobody! Sure, you all keep believeing that & Santa Claus might bring you something :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2012 at 5:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Cruz’s attorney, James Crowder, said Cruz now speaks to youth about the evils of violence, and tries to dissuade them of that conduct."
"Cruz was eventually tracked down to a creek area not far away, where he was hiding. He had an injury to his shoulder, Keller said, with “quite a bit of blood.” It was later determined the injury was likely the result of a stab wound."
I guess his motto is do what i say not what i do LOL
tonka (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2012 at 6:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The chickens are coming home to roost in Paradise. Looking deeper into the problem, how much longer will these "progressives" see how their own reflexive argument that we need endless cheap immigrant labor (which they don't even realize is exploitation that makes a mockery out of the labor movement they claim to support) is contributing to this never ending problem?
The mentality is "cram more impovershed people into an alreadry overcrowded, overpriced area and act suprised when the children of these expendable laborers turn to crime". It's easy to get angry at Cruz, but he's just a symptom of the dually-diagnosed mental illness of capitalism-at-any-cost as well as self-loathing leftism. Connect the dots and it will make sense.
Now we have no choice to lock Cruz away because he's crossed the line, but when will people finally wake up and realize that our society needs to stop producing the cause of the problem?
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2012 at 6:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hank writes:
Several people, including Rios and Ricardo Venegas from the Franklin Center, wrote letters about their hopes and aspirations for Cruz,"
Of course they have hopes, their jobs depends on that. Thing is this guy is gonna dash all their hopes w/ his lies of changing. It'll never happen.
No, hank...you have it backwards...here, let me explain:
Social services, programs, shelters, etc actually DEPEND on recidivism & a culture of dependency. See...if people actually stood on their own two feet and became independent, then the "providers" would be out of a job...and compared to the kinds of jobs the rank-and-file regular folks have to work in order to survive...those "provider" jobs are pretty cushy. They also carry big fat benefits like health coverage, retirement, paid time off, paid holidays, and they pay a LOT more than $8.00 (before taxes) per hour.
So...in conclusion: "providers" NEED guys like Cruz. WHen Cruz messes up, then he puts even MORE "providers" to work in the form of jail guards, jail support staff, social workers, counselors, etc. Everybody wins!
Well...everybody except society and of course, Cruz himself.
Holly (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2012 at 6:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Very true, Holly. Homeless, Inc. Merchants-of-Misery. Poverty Pimps. Gangs, Inc. Government employees that make better wages than the high tech sector now, and have retirements and health care benefits. It's a big business around here, and to grow it requires ever more 'clients'. So everyone in the biz of 'helping' is in the real business of enabling and growing the enabled. Net result: more homeless, and a gang problem that never goes away. It's great being a provider! Come to the dark side! We have cookies over here...
dogsnsand (anonymous profile)
May 11, 2012 at 7:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"suspected" gang member... yeah right.
and puh-lease, the “you just weren’t doing what we expected you to be doing” comment by eskin - seriously?
this town's "attempt" to deal with gangs is embarrassing.
MotoBella (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2012 at 12:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Just to note: Judge Eskin is married to Hannah-Beth Jackson.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 12, 2012 at 8:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
@billclausen: "...how much longer will these "progressives" see how their own reflexive argument that we need endless cheap immigrant labor (which they don't even realize is exploitation that makes a mockery out of the labor movement they claim to support) is contributing to this never ending problem?"
Ugh. No one advocating for the rights of immigrants makes this argument. No one. You are simply making this up.
If you want to pretend that the labour base of the agricultural sector is not based on illegal immigration - then, by all means, live in that fantasy world. But acknowledging that illegal immigration is an important part of the labour force is not the same as advocating for illegal immigration. And wanting people who come to this country to provide this labour base to be treated humanely is a matter of common decency - some thing surely lacking amongst you self-proclaimed "moderates" (who aren't really moderates but are far-right reactionaries).
EatTheRich (anonymous profile)
May 13, 2012 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Just to note: Judge Eskin is married to Hannah-Beth Jackson."
-- billclausen
McCarthy would be proud.
"Getting a job is just to support the 40 oz. habit & MAYBE the baby mommy. Going to school is to recruit more soldiers."
-- hank
So if he doesn't get a job or go to school, he's a shiftless bum. If he does, he's a shiftless bum. Well thought out, hank.
SezMe (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 12:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"McCarthy would be proud."
Joseph or Eugene?
ETR, I'll make it simple for you: Many of the Left argue that we can't survive without cheap immigrant labor and I disagree with that. That is the basis of my comment. Your comment is just another angry bit of hyperbole against the proverbial Miners Canary.
And SezME, pretty safe to say you're referring to Roy Cohn's client, but I just like to have fun bashing the stereotypes you uptight and mighty folks have of us simple-minded superstitious bumpkins. I can even count to ten in three languages. Fancy that?
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 2:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Holly: "No, hank...you have it backwards...here, let me explain:"
Holly, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, was @ a BMX race in SoCal. I think you missed the double meaning of the comment on that matter & I totally agree w/ you that they DO rely on failures such as this guy to get more funding. Just wasn't specific enough.
SeZie: "So if he doesn't get a job or go to school, he's a shiftless bum. If he does, he's a shiftless bum. Well thought out, hank."
Well, actually did think this 1 out & in your usual "progressive" (not Progressive) hate the hank guy-filled myopia, you missed the huge picture that comment was based on.
Most of these gang scum claim the reason they're the thugs they are is because they have no jobs & their "progressive" (not Progressive) lackeys keep saying that there needs to be more jobs programs to prevent kids from becoming gang scum.
Funny thing is that many of the gang scum in numeorus cases get picked up by the popo @ THEIR PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT or in this case, as well as many others, their EMPLOYMENT RECORD GETS MENTION IN COURT.
So in current theory (actually fact), that theory (actually fact) blows the initial theory totally out of the water.
By the way, BUMS (not homeless), shiftless or not, are a different nature in mentality, but their behavior of terrorizing people ain't far from the gang scum.
I'd never call a gang scum a BUM (not homeless), I call them what they are: Gang scum. BUMS (not homeless) are just, well, you know... BUMS (not homeless).
My advice to you is ditch the "progressive" (not Progressive) fueled hatred & pay close attention to the matters @ hand or the gang scum is gonna suck you in to their list of supporters (if you ain't already there). Best of luck to you! :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 4:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Check this out...1,2,4...countdown...no...wait 1,2,3..yeah, got it right finally see what I mean?...someone in Germany, Italy, and Spain would understand that. No lo creo, Soy genio.
"Ugh. No one advocating for the rights of immigrants makes this argument. No one. You are simply making this up."
I wouldn't make this up, the people arguing for "immigrants rights" keep saying that this country's economy depends on their labor. Sorry, you're mistaken. And to save you the trouble of making the following point: I'm well aware that the right-wing neoCON movement also wants unlimited cheap labor.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 5:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
@billcluasen: "I wouldn't make this up, the people arguing for "immigrants rights" keep saying that this country's economy depends on their labor. Sorry, you're mistaken."
1) That's not the same argument as "we need endless cheap immigrant labor". If you can't tell the difference, then really, you're posts aren't worth reading.
2) One only need to look at the billions of dollars the anti-immigration bills have and will continue to cost Alabama and Arizona to know that your view is not based on anything even remotely approaching reality.
3) People who continue to deny the vital role immigrants play in the U.S economy do so as a means to dehumanize and degrade those very people. And that serves to make the situation worse, not better...
EatTheRich (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 8:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well someone is out $10,000, that has got to hurt.
AZ2SB (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
bc-your point about the neo-cons and progressives both desiring tons of cheap labor is particularly germane. Interesting how close these two schools of thought end up...
Also, people have got to stop throwing out the point about cheap labor for agriculture in California. The actual numbers are that less than 15% of illegal aliens work in agriculture in this state. Look at the downward spiral of construction wages if you want to find the brutal impact of illegal aliens on our economy,
Oh yea, Rios is an embarrassment to UCSB from the get-go...
italiansurg (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 12:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"3) People who continue to deny the vital role immigrants play in the U.S economy do so as a means to dehumanize and degrade those very people. And that serves to make the situation worse, not better..." -The Human Cannibal-
ETR: When you say "vital role immigrants play" does that mean you favor the practice of exploiting the illegal status of some of them in such a way where they are mistreated?
What do you mean by "immigrant"? Do you mean legal or illegal? I find it odd that Japan can have such a strong economy without exploiting immigrants for cheap labor.
Sincerely awaiting your answer. -B.C.-
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 3:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I *knew* I forgot to add something: The "they're vital to the economy" argument I hear from open-borders forces (on both sides of the political aisle) reminds me of the argument from slaveowners who insisted the economy would fall apart if the slaves were freed. The same cheap labor argument. Anyone want to address *that*?
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked to read: Gang Member Violates Bail Agreement.
Another braindead conclusion to a braindead storyline.
And around and around they go.
Zzzzzzzz.
Draxor (anonymous profile)
May 14, 2012 at 8:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
In the most simpliest of terms:
Homie messed up. Was given conditions for release, messed up big time again, homie goes away...again.
Don't care what he did during the day. John Wayne Gacy was a Clown at children's parties making them laugh during the day. BUT, he was also a serial killer who killed and buried his victims under his house at night.
As Baretta said..."don't do the crime is you can't do the time"
BeachFan (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Draxor, you forgot the "alleged" lead in to "gang member" on that last post. Remember, he's "allegedly" a gang member. The tats, the acts, the attitude, they don't mean a thing. It is all "alleged" according to the all mighty media.
But going back to the answer to SezMalarchy's poorly thought out attempt to attack my point of view, as wrong as he/she/it may be.
I love when the gang scum use "lack of employment" as the basis for their reason to "act out" the way they do.
Like I said, many or most of them have jobs, even get picked up by the popo @ said jobs or their employment record gets brought up in front of the judge when the fit hits the shan for them.
But then, as an employer, do you REALLY wanna hire that dude w/ the face tats & the crappy attitude to represent YOUR business?
If the jobs ain't "available" it is simply because they did it to themselves looks & attitude wise.
Employers go on a limb hiring these clowns for many reasons & these clowns ALWAYS find a way to screw that up.
So to all you "progressive" (not Progressives) out there defending these guys by citing lack of work as a reason for their crappy existence, please, stop, take a moment to realize how much of a lie that is & find a REAL reason as to why they do as they do :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
@villclausen: "The "they're vital to the economy" argument I hear from open-borders forces (on both sides of the political aisle) reminds me of the argument from slaveowners who insisted the economy would fall apart if the slaves were freed. The same cheap labor argument. Anyone want to address *that*?"
Yeah - the arguments are not related in any way except in your own brain. At this point... you're simply trolling.
EatTheRich (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 1:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Every time I have been without gainful employment I have added inviting facial tattoos and the always attractive back art that creeps up my neck to insure that the next job is even more difficult to acquire; of course I blame racial profiling when I am turned down; or my lousy childhood; or Arizona; oh hell you get the point...
italiansurg (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 1:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EatTheRich's response is typical of someone who knows they've lost the argument. They don't address the point raised. Hopefully, this person, whoever he/she is, will realize someday that their "their vital to the economy" stance plays into the exploitation of people they claim to support.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 3:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
italiansurg: "of course I blame racial profiling when I am turned down; or my lousy childhood; or Arizona;"
Like that punk that gets shot in Repo Man befeore dying: "I blame society..." :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 3:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I blame the Irish.
Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
But of course they ("progressives" not Progressives) support "out of state workers" Bill.
Didn't Feinstein & Huffington, supposed proponents of immigration reform & against illegal immigrant labor, BOTH have "out of state" nannies?
In fact, @ the time of their employment of said "out of state" workers 1 was a US Senator & the other a US Congressperson. Do as we say, noyt as we do.
Now the average folks want to hire them too because guess what? THEY'RE CHEAP LABOR!
But I gotta say Bill, the issue w/ guys like this recently arested vermin isn't about immigration, well, except MAYBE for his parents.
For the most part it just has to do w/ a menatlity of evilness that only gets perpetuated by the next generation of losers that scum like him manages to recruit.
These guys have jobs, they go to school, nothing prevents them from doing so.
But instead of working to earn a decent living or going to school to learn something useful, both to better oneself, they use those places to either recover from the hangover (hence crappy attitude) or recruit new idiots & network w/ old losers.
These are morons that DON'T want to "conform to society" because "that's for suckas" as they like to say.
They're cowardly, can only fight if the scenario is 5 on 1 in their favor @ the very least.
I had a run in once in IV (of all places) w/ 2 of these g13 morons. They liked my skateboard as well as the girl I was w/ & they wanted to take those by force if necessary.
Took them on singlehanded, disarmed 1 (he had a shank, not for long), beat the other to a pulp & the disarmed 1 ran like a coward leaving his homie behind to receive a "tune up."
When the "progressives" (not Progressives) can put down the recent issue of Daily Kos & look @ the problem realistically you'll se a HUGE shift in stance.
Until then, the Marx-Engells induced fantasyland they want is all they know :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jedi Hank
Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
@billclausen: "EatTheRich's response is typical of someone who knows they've lost the argument. They don't address the point raised. Hopefully, this person, whoever he/she is, will realize someday that their "their vital to the economy" stance plays into the exploitation of people they claim to support."
Sorry Bill, but all you've done is present straw men and show a startling ignorance of American history - but at least you have a false sense of self-importance. Better than a cocktail, I suppose...
EatTheRich (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 8:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ETR, when you address the points I've raised with something other than an off-the-topic personal attack, I'll be glad to discuss the matter with you.
As for Ken's "Irish" remark, do I surmise correctly it's a reference to an unrepeatable scene from Blazing Saddles where everybody unites?
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 9:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Guilty as blogged Bill.
Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 9:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So we let me get this straight, are we blaming all the illegal, irish, progressive, gangbangers?
AZ2SB (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So we let me get this straight, are we blaming all the illegal, irish, progressive, gangbangers? I can do that.
AZ2SB (anonymous profile)
May 15, 2012 at 10:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why do you attack me and make fun of my name Hank? You attack my views, my name...wait, for a moment there I thought I was SezMe, or was it sez_me? Now I'm really confused.
fivedolphins (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2012 at 2:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
@billclausen: "ETR, when you address the points I've raised with something other than an off-the-topic personal attack, I'll be glad to discuss the matter with you."
Which point would you like me to address - the one where you refute an argument that no one is making, or the one where you misappropriate the historical arguments for slavery with no context?
EatTheRich (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2012 at 4:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
5dolphins: "Why do you attack me and make fun of my name Hank? You attack my views, my name...wait, for a moment there I thought I was SezMe, or was it sez_me? Now I'm really confused."
HAHAHA! Dude (actually H2O mammal), I couldn't do that for the following 7 reasons (since there's 7 seas):
1) You've never attacked me.
2) You ain't gang scum.
3) You ain't a BUM (not homeless).
4) You ain't a "progressive" (not Progressive).
5) You're friends w/ KenV.
6) You've got a sense of humor.
7) You're the mascot for my favorite football franchise (the ONLY undefeated 1 @ that, got that Chestie!).
There, hope that settles that, now back to your regularly scheduled dose of "progressive" (not Progressive) fueled malarchy :) henry
hank (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2012 at 11:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hank-you stole my list...
italiansurg (anonymous profile)
May 16, 2012 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ETR, the part about them being vital for the economy. Please explain how other countries can prosper without explointing cheap immigrant labor.
As for my being ignorant of history: From what I've read (after all neither of us were there when it happened) the pro-slavery supporters made the argument that if slavery ended, it would have devestating impacts on the economy. I tie that argument in with the fact that people today make the same argument for the cheap labor racket. A: I question that those who hire (and exploit) illegal immigrants are passing that savings unto us; and B: I say that we should be (like Japan) working toward an educated soceity rather than one where the fastest growing demographic is that of low-skilled people. Also, while I understand why neoCONs (sic) want unlimited cheap labor (because they only care about shortcut to profits) I'm amazed that so many progressives buy into this lie.
That is where I'm coming from.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2012 at 7:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
May I propose another qualifier: gang scum (not fashionista)
Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2012 at 7:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
@billclausen:"Please explain how other countries can prosper without explointing cheap immigrant labor."
Simple. They have far more government regulation.
@billcalusen:"From what I've read (after all neither of us were there when it happened) the pro-slavery supporters made the argument that if slavery ended, it would have devestating impacts on the economy."
The issue about slavery was federal versus state rights. Yes, our economy was founded on it, but but the time it really started, it had more to do with the federal demands on the southern states. Funny, how little has changed...
@billclausen: "A: I question that those who hire (and exploit) illegal immigrants are passing that savings unto us;"
They're not, so...
@billclausen: "Also, while I understand why neoCONs (sic) want unlimited cheap labor (because they only care about shortcut to profits) I'm amazed that so many progressives buy into this lie."
What lie? So the billions lost by Alabama and Arizona is a lie? And progressives - as you put it - are also arguing for the Dream Act - so how is that the same as demanding a slave class?
EatTheRich (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2012 at 7:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Because they argue "we need them for cheap labor" so by definition they want a stratified society.
Also, please don't try to manipulate the conversation by throwing in the Dream Act, please stick to the topic at hand. One thing at a time.
Also, my experience is that people on the Left are very pro-"bilingual education" and for bilingual services. End result, many from south of the border (I'm including other central American countries in this) do not learn the language of empowerment in the U.S.
Rewind to the antebellum times. It was against the law to teach a slave to read and write. Why was this?...because the white racists knew literacy was power. How did Jews and Asians advance against racism and antisemetism?...by beating the bigot at their own game. (Education/literacy) TRUE progressives did what they could to make sure blacks learned to read and write--much to the chagrin of racists. Fast forward to today: Many so-called "progressives" make sure that Spanish-speaking immigrants don't learn English and whether this is a reflexive response to what they perceive as a racist society or whether it's a deliberate move to ensure business for vested interests or any combination of the two I don't know. What I do know, is that any attempt to challenge this and bring it to the forefront is met with hostile resistance.
How many "progressives" today tie in the fact that their support of linguistic multiculturalism contradicts the TRUE Progressives who knew that literacy in the language of the land was the Key To The Kingdom? How many Democrats or Socialists stand up to the idea of enabling monolingualism?
As a side note, I'm not Latino/Hispanic/whatever term you're comfortable with but I'm fairly proficient in Spanish despite having never heard it at home and having never lived outside the U.S. and I find it very interesting that many of these white "progressives" think I'm racist for not supporting "bilingual" services (which as I've pointed out, result in people not learning English) yet many of these same people judging me and others like me don't learn Spanish themselves thus proving they have no interest in communicating with these people.
I hope this clears things up.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2012 at 9:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
A aquellos personas que creen que no tenga derecho dicer lo que acabo de decir y no pueden entender esto son culpable de hipocrisia.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 17, 2012 at 9:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
@billclausen:"Also, please don't try to manipulate the conversation by throwing in the Dream Act, please stick to the topic at hand."
As much as you insist on framing the debate in manners that suit you, I'm simply not buying. But then there's this little gem from you...
@billclausen: "How many 'progressives' today tie in the fact that their support of linguistic multiculturalism contradicts the TRUE Progressives who knew that literacy in the language of the land was the Key To The Kingdom?"
My DREAM ACT mention was far more relevent than anything in your post, but hey - you clearly have a worldview devoid of any facts, so whatever part of me that thought this would be a useful exercise is clearly giving you far too much credit. Don't worry, it won't happen again.
If you insist on attributing arguments to "Progressives" that aren't being made by *anyone*, then there's no point in continuing this debate. No one - NO ONE - is reasonably suggesting that immigrants shouldn't learn English. And there is ZERO conflict between educating immigrants in English and bilingual education.
And "linguistic multiculturalism" as a term doesn't even makes sense - so it's clear you do not know what those words mean.
And for the record, I've actually lived in Mexico for a period of time.
EatTheRich (anonymous profile)
May 20, 2012 at 9:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The ability of individuals to communicate with each other in a community is vital.
Ken_Volok (anonymous profile)
May 20, 2012 at 11:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"No one - NO ONE - is reasonably suggesting that immigrants shouldn't learn English. And there is ZERO conflict between educating immigrants in English and bilingual education."
What it is is that they talk about the importance of learning English, while making it near impossible to do so. Eighth graders at Franklin school back in the 90's in that school since 1st grade who STILL were not English-proficient. Make the connection. When these points were brought up at school board meetings, the teachers and activists and America-haters did what you are doing--attacking with hyperbole and refusing to address their failed policy. Is it that you people fail to make the connection, or have another scheme at hand? I don't get how people can be so blind, but the fact that y'all don't address the facts and try to shut down anyone who dares to present them says a lot. (My favorite is the teacher who compared ending bilingual education to "Hitler's Final Solution"; tell THAT to someone in a nursing home in Miami or New York with the number tatood on their arm) No ETR, they talk out both sides of their mouths, that's the nature of the poltical game, and if you don't think education is politicized, let's take a trip to Kansas because I've got some nice beachfront property there to show you.
ETR, did you study law while in Mexico? I saw this because you clearly argue like a defense attorney who tries to stray away from the facts.
Here is what happened: I presented irrefutable facts and predictably, you don't want to discuss the points I've raised and attack me personally. If I were some Rush Limbaugh-worshipping Dittohead I'd be easy pickin's but I'm pointing out that those who claim to represent the underclass often do more harm than good and that infuriates the likes of yourself.
I've dealt with your type before, and don't expect it's likely you will change, but at least someone reading this may get a a different view of things by reading my posts so I consider this debate a success.
Ken: I agree with you about communication being vital, but how can I communicate with someone who won't even address the points I've made?
One more thing: "EatTheRich"....the screenname says it all.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 21, 2012 at 1:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I did leave one thing out: The Dream Act can only succeed if Spanish-speaking immigrants are not treated with such low expectations--such as being told that unlike every other immigrant group in the U.S. they cannot be expected to assimilate into U.S. culture and as such have everything translated for them.
Continue to put me down, but if you are sincere about wanting to see these people succeed via the Dream Act, you will see that I'm far more on your side than the multiculturalists who insist on the linguistic welfare system.
Only YOU know your true intent, so I can't pass judgement against you on this one, but hopefully you'll see that linguistic Balkanization sabotages the goal of the Dream Act. I hope I don't have to explain what that means--as I think it's self-evident.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
May 21, 2012 at 1:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)