Here’s a head-scratcher for you: Can zombies argue that they don’t exist?
The philosophy of mind is a thriving field in recent decades, with new books and articles appearing with increasing frequency. This article is the second in an occasional series on the role of mind in the universe and, thus, in science.
Strangely, modern science is dominated by the idea that to be scientific means to remove consciousness from our explanations, in order to be “objective.” This was, of course, the rationale behind behaviorism, a now-dead theory of psychology that took this trend to a perverse extreme. Behaviorists like John B. Watson and B.F. Skinner scrupulously avoided any discussion of what their subjects thought, intended, or wanted and focused, instead, entirely on behavior. They thought that because thoughts in other peoples’ heads, or in animals’, are impossible to know with certainty, we should simply ignore them in our theories. We can only be truly scientific, they asserted, if we focus solely on what can be directly observed and measured: behavior.
This point of view is known most generally as “positivism,” which asserts that only those things we can measure directly should be part of our theories in science. Positivism has held sway in various branches of science to varying degrees over the last couple of centuries. Einstein was in his early career strongly inspired by Ernst Mach’s version of positivism, creating his special theory of relativity in 1905 partly as a response to this philosophy (and thus expelling the luminiferous ether from physics as “superfluous”). But Einstein learned better, rejecting positivism by the middle of his career as inadequate. A great passage from Walter Isaacson’s biography of Einstein is very telling:
“We cannot observe electron orbits inside the atom,” Heisenberg said [to Einstein]. “A good theory must be based on directly observable magnitudes.”
“But you don’t seriously believe,” Einstein protested, “that none but observable magnitudes must go into a physical theory?”
“Isn’t that precisely what you have done with relativity?” Heisenberg asked with some surprise.
“Possibly I did use this kind of reasoning,” Einstein admitted, “but it is nonsense all the same.”
In other words, Einstein’s approach had evolved.
Einstein had a similar conversation with his friend in Prague, Philipp Frank. “A new fashion has arisen in physics,” Einstein complained, which declares that certain things cannot be observed and therefore should not be ascribed reality.
“But the fashion you speak of,” Frank protested, “was invented by you in 1905!”
Replied Einstein: “A good joke should not be repeated too often.”
21st Century scientists and philosophers are steadily beginning to come around to Einstein’s view and most physicists have generally abandoned a strong positivist stance. But modern science still suffers in many ways from its own version of cognitive dissonance by maintaining what is essentially a behaviorist/positivist stance in, of all places, the philosophy of mind (and in biology, the focus of my next installment in this series).
Erwin Schrödinger, one of the key architects of quantum mechanics in the early part of the 20th Century, labeled this approach in 1954 the “principle of objectivation” and expressed it clearly:
“By [the principle of objectivation] I mean … a certain simplification which we adopt in order to master the infinitely intricate problem of nature. Without being aware of it and without being rigorously systematic about it, we exclude the Subject of Cognizance from the domain of nature that we endeavor to understand. We step with our own person back into the part of an onlooker who does not belong to the world, which by this very procedure becomes an objective world.”
Schrödinger did, however, identify both the problem and the solution. He recognized that “objectivation” is just a simplification that is a temporary step in the progress of science in understanding the natural world. We are now at the point where we must abandon, where appropriate, the principle of objectivation – and so gain a more complete understanding of reality, and thus ourselves.
Now back to the zombies: In defending positivism and a radical materialist view of consciousness, some writers have argued that consciousness is an illusion, a view described as “eliminativism” because it attempts to resolve the problem of explaining consciousness by arguing that it doesn’t really exist. Once we have explained what brains do, under this view, we have said all there is to say about consciousness. So “mind” and subjectivity reduces to what the brain does, which is just matter and energy in motion. Daniel Dennett, W.V.O. Quine, Douglas Hofstadter, and Susan Blackmore all arguably fall into this camp. These writers argue, accordingly, that they themselves, as subjective beings, don’t exist. Let us call this the “zombie defense.”
A zombie, in the philosophy of mind, is a person who looks and acts exactly the same as a real person. But the zombie lacks any inner life, any consciousness. Eliminativists, who argue that mind can be explained entirely as electrochemical signals in the brain, are arguing, effectively, that they are themselves zombies, and so is everyone else. Now, my description here isn’t entirely fair, because no philosopher has, to my knowledge, argued literally that she is a zombie. But arguing that consciousness itself is an illusion amounts to the same thing. This strange state of affairs should prompt us to re-examine our terminology – and more closely examine the writings of the eliminativists.
Dennett is the most well-known of these philosophers. But he has also stated, in a key 1988 article, “I don’t deny the reality of conscious experience.” So Dennett’s position is arguably contradictory. The better interpretation is, however, that Dennett’s key argument is primarily directed against any type of Cartesian dualism, under which there is a special substance that we can call mind, spirit, or soul that is distinct from matter.
The tension in Dennett’s position is that by acknowledging (necessarily, it would seem) the reality of conscious experience, Dennett can’t also argue that purely externalist objective explanations of consciousness say all that can be said about conscious experience. Rather, if conscious experience is real, it is surely different than simply describing – in as much detail as one likes – the electrochemical processes of a human brain. No matter how much detail we provide about electrochemical processes, such descriptions will never say anything at all about the quality of the subjective experience. This is the whole point of accepting an epistemological dualism between the “inside” and “outside” of things.
Materialism, under this line of reasoning, reduces to what I label “crypto-panpsychism.” This is the case because if we accept that subjectivity is the most real thing we know, and that it springs from matter, then we can come to the view that all matter has some degree of mind or subjectivity – panpsychism under a different name. To be even more geeky, we can give this position a more complete label of “panpsychist materialism,” and this is what philosopher David Ray Griffin has done in his book Unsnarling the World-Knot (though he uses the similar phrase “panexperiential physicalism”).
To sum up, by ignoring mind in nature we ignore the only way we know the world – because the “world” is, for each of us, wholly a creation of our own mind, based on the imperfect sense data we receive from the objective world – but we also ignore the more complete science made possible by accepting mind as present in all of nature. Human minds are, then, a natural product of the evolution of mind and matter, which are just two aspects of the same thing. Human minds represent the most complex form of mind in this corner of our universe. We are special in the complexity of our minds, but we are not distinct in a qualitative sense from the rest of nature.
In the last analysis, Teilhard de Chardin, another panpsychist, had it right and, as always, expressed the thought beautifully in his 1959 book, The Phenomenon of Man: “To decipher man is essentially to try to find out how the world was made and how it ought to go on making itself.”
Tam Hunt is a philosopher, lawyer and biologist. He lives in Santa Barbara and keeps a blog, Thought, Spirit, Politik at tamhunt.blogspot.com.
Related Links
- Absent Minded Science (one in a series) [ August 11, 2010 ]


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I think the chosen analogy is the failure here. To be sure, ALL analogies fail at some point, but the choice of a "zombie" is misleading. A better choice might be "automaton", although that too has a denotation of CHOICE-less (as opposed to "mindless") behavior.
If a zombie/automaton/robot were able to be programmed with 'self-awareness', is this not the same as consciousness? Is it possible that human self-awareness is simply a multi-layered kind of 'programming', as a mix of instincts and learned responses to stimuli--but so complicated as to make it appear as more?
equus_posteriori (anonymous profile)
November 19, 2010 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Human minds are, then, a natural product of the evolution of mind and matter ...". No, human brains are the product of evolution. Mind is what the brain does.
If everything has a mind, do I have wince when I chop up a head of lettuce for dinner tomorrow?
SezMe (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 1:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
There are a lot of incompetent philosophers and Tam Hunt is among the worst. If you really want to know about zombies, or consciousness, read Robert Kirk's "Zombies and Consciousness": http://www.amazon.com/Zombies-Conscio...
Kirk is the philosopher came up with the "philosophical zombie" terminology back in 1974 and has said that this book is penance for the resulting confusion and error.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 2:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
P.S.
"Here’s a head-scratcher for you: Can zombies argue that they don’t exist?"
It's only a head-scratcher for a fool or ignoramus. The definition of a (philosophical) zombie is a creature that is physically and behaviorally identical to a human but which isn't conscious. If zombies are possible, then of course they can argue that zombies don't exist because humans can (and some do) argue that, and every human has a behaviorally identical zombie counterpart.
"Strangely, modern science is dominated by the idea that to be scientific means to remove consciousness from our explanations, in order to be “objective.”"
This, like so much in this article, is wrong and foolishly so. Science is in no way "dominated" by this idea, and it's a ridiculous conception of what "to be scientific" *means*. Nor is there any requirement to "remove consciousness from our explanations" in order to be objective -- Hunt's scare-quotes are grossly unscientific innuendo, which is all he's about here. This whole article is unscientific because it is brimming with intellectual dishonesty.
"This was, of course, the rationale behind behaviorism, a now-dead theory of psychology that took this trend to a perverse extreme."
No, behaviorism is not dead at all. It is the *radical* behaviorism -- that claimed "perverse extreme" (this isn't science, it's Hunt's intellectually dishonest polemic) -- that is in disfavor. Watson and Skinner eschewed talk of the mental because they didn't believe that it could be treated scientifically, *but now we know differently*. Hunt makes his ridiculous claim about science being dominated by avoidance of consciousness, then says that view is dead -- quite the contradiction! That's because his whole screed is ignorant and dishonest trash. There are much better sources of information on these subjects.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 3:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Is it possible that human self-awareness is simply a multi-layered kind of 'programming', as a mix of instincts and learned responses to stimuli--but so complicated as to make it appear as more? "
It's not only possible, it's virtually certain. To understand human self-awareness, I recommend Thomas Metzinger's work -- http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_nos...
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 3:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"“I don’t deny the reality of conscious experience.” So Dennett’s position is arguably contradictory."
This is such crap. Dennett's position is only "arguably contradictory" because Hunt has attributed to him a position that he has explicitly denied -- Dennett is NOT an eliminativist in re consciousness (only in re qualia) and does NOT "argue, accordingly, that they themselves, as subjective beings, don’t exist". Hunt is unwilling and incapable of understanding what Dennett's position really is. Hunt write that "So “mind” and subjectivity reduces to what the brain does, which is just matter and energy in motion." and so he is an eliminativist, but Dennett has spent his whole career showing, in various ways, how this doesn't follow! In his Intentional Stance theory, he has shown not only that you cannot eliminate minds if you are going to deal effectively with human beings, but that you must attribute minds or something like them to all sorts or things, such as water buffalo and chess playing computer programs, in order to make sense of -- and accurately predict -- their behavior. Dennett is a model of conceptual clarity in re minds whereas Hunt is the opposite, with his nonsense about "panpsychism". As Dennett has noted, when someone has their arm severed in an accident and both the arm and the rest of the body are rushed to the hospital to be sewn back together, we have good reason to administer an anesthetic to the armless body but not to the bodyless arm.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 3:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's something from Tam Hunt's blog:
"But here’s the problem: It is literally impossible for mind to spring forth from that which is wholly devoid of mind. This problem becomes clear if we envision the ultimate constituents of matter as akin to little billiard balls. (This is not an accurate notion, even in terms of the prevailing views of matter, but it is accurate in terms of my point here). No matter how we arrange any number of the little billiard balls, the collection will never give rise to any type of mind—unless there is some type of mind contained in the little billiard balls from the get-go. And the prevailing theory of mind today denies that there is any mind at all in the little billiard balls or any of the ultimate constituents of matter."
One would have hoped that this sort of fallacious silliness would have gone out with vitalism, which made a similar argument about life, but alas no. It's a textbook case of fallacy of composition -- http://www.logicalfallacies.info/rele... :
"It is certainly difficult to see how consciousness can emerge from purely material processes, but the mere fact that each part of the brain is unconscious does not entail that the whole brain is the same."
Hunt's assertion that "No matter how we arrange any number of the little billiard balls, the collection will never give rise to any type of mind--unless there is some type of mind contained in the little billiard balls from the get-go" is grossly intellectually dishonest, because we KNOW that certain arrangements of organic molecules -- namely, those that compose brains -- DO give rise to a type of mind, and we have every reason to think that that is because of their functional structure and not because each of those molecules, and their constituent atoms in turn, and their constituent quarks in turn, are itsy bitsy mind-like things. Certainly to baldly ASSERT, as Hunt does, that panpsychism is NECESSARY to explain how a brain could produce a mind is a fallacy of begging the question.
But really, his argument above is so lacking in anything resembling intelligence that I think I'm giving him too much credit by commenting on his writings on this subject at all.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 4:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Finally, Tam Hunt is a lawyer but he is NOT a biologist: he has no degree or training in biology, as should be obvious by his complete failure to understand evolution -- not only his drivel above about "Human minds are, then, a natural product of the evolution of mind and matter", but on his blog he writes "The prevailing theory argues that mind emerges from mindless matter when a certain level of complexity is reached, in both evolutionary history and in each organism. That is, at some point in the history of life on our planet, a mind appeared for the first time where it was wholly absent before." -- that, of course, is NOT the prevailing theory, any more than the prevailing theory argues that, at some point in the history of life on our planet, a fish or a bird or a leg or a stomach appeared for the first time where it was wholly absent before. All of these things had precursors that look less and less like minds, fish, birds, legs, or stomachs as we look further and further back in time, but there is no bright line where something can be definitively identified as the first mind, fish, bird, leg or stomach.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 4:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And, of course, there is no point in the development of a specific human being where it can be said that we have a mind where it was wholly absent before. That Hunt claims that this is the "prevailing theory" indicates that he knows virtually nothing about the things he writes about here but is happy to pretend that he does.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 4:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Ah, but zombies DO exist AND they often employ extraordinary measures to make it seem they don't. You've all seen them---shells of animated skin chatting away on their cellphones while they drive, endlessly texting others of their kind communicating mostly about nothing as their central nervous systems suffer terminal hijack.
Draxor (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 10:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
truth-machine, I guess I should be flattered you've taken the time to try and rebut my points with such zeal.
First, I do in fact have a degree in biology from UC San Diego (B.S., honors). More importantly than my degree, however, is the fact that I have since earning my degree continued to read broadly in evolutionary biology. I don't place much credence in degrees but they are a quick credibility gatekeeper, of course, and that is their main function. I also have a law degree from UCLA School of Law, for what that's worth (not much in this context, but, again, many people do find such things relevant).
Second, what is ironic is that you and I actually appear to agree on the key point of this series of articles (the above piece is #2 in a series of 7, the rest forthcoming). You write:
"All of these things had precursors that look less and less like minds, fish, birds, legs, or stomachs as we look further and further back in time, but there is no bright line where something can be definitively identified as the first mind, fish, bird, leg or stomach."
This is exactly my point: mind has existed in at least rudimentary form from the very beginning and has complexified as matter has complexified.
But this is patently NOT the position of the majority of philosophers or cognitive scientists. "Emergence" seems to be the prevailing view, though there are not to my knowledge any polls on this issue. And emergence theory argues exactly what I say it does in these articles: Mind somehow emerges at a certain level of complexity from wholly mindless matter. So "a miracle occurs," and this is why I find emergence theory highly implausible. Read Colin McGinn or Galen Strawson on this issue.
I focus in this piece on the more extreme proponents, however, such as Dennett, who are "eliminativists" in that they deny the validity of consciousness entirely, or least claim to, in a self-contradictory manner.
Emergentists are less extreme than eliminativists, but adhere to equally implausible views for the many reasons I've outlined in parts I and II of this series.
Look, I don't know what your sources are for philosophy of mind, but I've read much of what's been written in the last couple of decades on this topic, as well as many of the major philosophers' works on this issue from centuries past. This doesn't mean my positions are necessarily right, but it does mean that I'm informed on current debates in the philosophy of mind and the various positions expressed.
TamHunt (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
continued...
As for your claim that I mis-represent Dennett's work, read "Facing Backwards on the Problem of Consciousness." He's very clear that he believes that once we explain the "remarkable functions associated with consciousness" that there is nothing left to explain. He elsewhere argues for "third-person absolutism," which is exactly the kind of absent-minded science that I argue against in this series of essays, and which a wit once called "Skinnerian neuromythology."
I'm happy to engage in debate but if you're serious about dialogue I'd recommend you seriously tone down your style. It's not helpful and it reveals a very emotionally immature thinker.
TamHunt (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mr. Hunt, I concur that there's no need here to get so emotionally charged here and/or engage in character assassination. IMO, it doesn't bring any validity to your arguments. In fact, I'm likely to skip reading it entirely as soon as I see it begin.
santabanana (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 11:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
SezMe, you write: "human brains are the product of evolution. Mind is what the brain does."
This is an assertion that you don't back up with argumentation or evidence. The point of my two articles is that this assertion, which is arguably the "eliminativist" or "identist" view in the philosophy of mind, is empirically inadequate and incoherent.
We cannot reasonably deny the validity of consciousness/mind. Indeed, it is the only thing we know directly. And to say that mind is simply what the brain does is to effectively deny mind as existing as something different than third-person objective reality. In other words, we could, in your view, describe the brain entirely in third-person terms and that would be the end of it. But of course that's not the end of it because there is in fact an inside to each brain, which is subjectivity.
And if we acknowledge the epistemological split between first-person experience and the third-person objective world, we must explain why this split exists. This is the mind/body problem.
To argue that mind is simply what the brain does is potentially eliminativist because it asserts, in other words, that brain and mind are identical. And this is clearly not the case UNLESS we define brain (or its constituents, to be more accurate) to include subjectivity in some manner. And this is my position: what we call matter includes subjectivity at every level, from the most rudimentary subjectivity in subatomic particles to highly complex subjectivity in us. Each constituent of matter is both objective for third parties and subjective for itself.
See Part III: On Solidity, for more on this, which should be published next week.
TamHunt (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 12:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Second, what is ironic is that you and I actually appear to agree on the key point of this series of articles"
You're intellectually dishonest, as I said.
As for you having a degree in biology, it's sad that you so misunderstood what you were taught.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"IMO, it doesn't bring any validity to your arguments."
Nor does it deny them of any, but that's your ad hominem implication.
"In fact, I'm likely to skip reading it entirely as soon as I see it begin."
You can skip whatever you want, but that's you loss and it doesn't make it any less valid.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 1:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Asserting that the mind is what the brain does is NOT, I repeat, NOT to assert that the brain and mind are identical. A light bulb produces light - that's what it does. That does NOT argue that a light bulb is light.
This is only part 2 of 7? I'm not sure I'll keep reading as these first two weren't well argued. Where are you going with all this? What do you want the reader to know at the end? I'd like to see a road map before blindly starting the journey.
SezMe (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
An analogous argument to Hunt's would be that the prevailing theory in physics is that, if you just get enough water molecules together that enough "complexity" is present that, magically, you get wetness, and that these physicists are silly gooses who are ignoring the obvious fact that the only way water could be wet is if every water molecule is wet.
Of course, water molecules are not and need not be wet for water to be wet any more than organic molecules are or need to be conscious in order for people to be conscious, and it isn't mere numbers or mere complexity that produces either wetness or consciousness -- that is not the prevailing theory, it is only a simpleton misunderstanding. Physicists, and people like Dennett, are not the sort of fools that Hunt portrays them as, people who believe that, when there's enough complexity, a miracle happens. The theory is about the *details* of how such things as wetness or consciousness arise from the *interaction* of components. The notion that you can't have wetness or consciousness unless the components in turn are wet or conscious is, as I said, a fallacy of composition, and it's a particularly silly one.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 1:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SezMe: there is a sense in which digestion can be *identified with* your GI tract because there is nothing about digestion that cannot be traced to states of your GI tract. In that sense, "production of light" (not light itself) can be identified with the light bulb, and the mind (what the brain is doing) can be identified with the brain. This is so-called "type identity" -- see, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_phy...
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
P.S. Note that while light is something that exudes from a lightbulb, mind is not something that exudes from the brain -- it is not made of soul or spirit stuff, it is a *process* of the brain and cannot be separated from it -- thus, the linkage is much much tighter than that of light with a lightbulb, arguably to the point of identity.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SezMe, thanks for clarifying your position. However, if you assert that mind and brain are not identical, but, rather, brain produces mind (like a bulb produces light), we are back to the question: how do mind and brain differ and why does the brain produce mind? This is, again, the mind/body problem and simply asserting that the brain produces mind is really no explanation at all.
To use your metaphor, we have in physics different terms for "matter" and "light" (a type of energy) and we think we understand how matter and energy related to each other. We seek in the philosophy of mind at least as good an understanding of how brain and mind relate to each other.
So let me ask you: how does brain produce mind and what types of matter produce minds? And if it is only a complex brain like that of a human, ape, dog, cat, etc., where does the ability to produce a mind stop and why?
As for my series of articles, the theme, as you can tell, is absent-minded science. So each article explores an area of this basic mistake with today's scientific paradigm and suggests ways in which science can be improved by re-incorporating mind into our explanations.
TamHunt (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
truth machine, you are now contradicting yourself. You argued previously that there is no bright line when mind suddenly appears - which is the same as my position. But in your last post you are now arguing the standard emergence position, which is exactly the opposite in that it does indeed argue that features of the universe suddenly emerge where they did not exist before.
As for emergence and comparisons to features like liquidity, this is a common objection to anti-emergence arguments like mine. If features like liquidity, solidity or color can emerge from objects that don't display these features, isn't this a good precedent for emergence of mind from non-mind? In a word, no.
There is a crucial difference. Let's take liquidity. Liquidity is indeed a new feature of molecules that isn't present until the right conditions are present. H and O molecules aren't themselves liquid at room temperature. And yet liquidity is entirely explicable by looking at how these molecules interact with each other. There is really no mystery now (well, surely some, but not much) in how H and O molecules combine to form dipolar molecules that attract each other more loosely than in a solid but less loosely than in a gas. In other words, liquidity is pretty predictable, or at least explicable, when we consider the constituents of any given liquid. We're dealing with "outsides" at every step in this process - first the outsides of the individual molecules and then the outsides of the combination of molecules in the liquid.
Consciousness is entirely different because we are not talking about relational properties of the outsides of various substances. We are talking about insides, experience, consciousness, phemonema, qualia, etc. And when we define our physical constituents as wholly lacking in mind then it is literally impossible for mind to "emerge" from this wholly mindless substrate. This is what Strawson calls "radical emergence" and he makes basically the same argument that I've made here as to its impossibility.
Now, maybe impossibility is too strong a word for you. Granted, at this level of abstraction we can't prove anything (can anything be proved, period?). So perhaps a better word would be implausible. It is highly implausible that the inside of matter (mind, consciousness) would suddenly emerge at some arbitrary midpoint in the history of the universe. Isn't it far more plausible that if there must be some kind of emergence (something from nothing) that it occurs at the beginning of the ontological chain of being?
TamHunt (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 6:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"truth machine, you are now contradicting yourself. You argued previously that there is no bright line when mind suddenly appears - which is the same as my position."
No it isn't, but you don't understand the difference. You repeatedly claim that people are being inconsistent or contradicting themselves based on YOUR foolish attribution of views to them, not on what they actually write. For instance, you say that Dennett says there's no consciousness, despite his explicitly saying otherwise, because you infer "no "consciousness" from material reductionism. But that's as stupid as claiming that someone who thinks that legs are made of bone and flesh also thinks there are no legs.
"It is highly implausible that the inside of matter (mind, consciousness) would suddenly emerge at some arbitrary midpoint in the history of the universe"
But I didn't say it does. The whole point about no bright line is that it isn't "sudden", it's gradual, with precursors that partially resemble consciousness -- or fish or birds or legs or stomachs, my other examples that you foolishly ignore. The Creationists make an argument quite similar to yours about those latter items -- it's implausible that fish or legs just suddenly arose by a mutation. But, of course, that is NOT the "prevailing theory", and anyone who actually UNDERSTOOD evolution would be well aware of that.
You make claims about impossibility and about the special nature of consciousness, but you are simply wrong in your claims, as people like Bernard Baars, Tom Clark, and Thomas Metzinger have demonstrated -- it quite possible to create the subject out raw unconscious materials, and your insistence otherwise is simply argumentum ad ignorantiam, and your panpsychic nonsense is radical question begging.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 23, 2010 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"So each article explores an area of this basic mistake with today's scientific paradigm and suggests ways in which science can be improved by re-incorporating mind into our explanations. "
Yeah, science would be improved if scientists became stupid.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
November 23, 2010 at 10:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"because the 'world' is, for each of us, wholly a creation of our own mind, based on the imperfect sense data we receive from the objective world"
Sense data received is a tangible thing, creation of one's mind is a subjective thing therefore the statement is contradictory.
We are born, eat, sleep, fall in love, laugh, cry, then kick the bucket and hopefully go on to something better. If you are in a concentration camp, life will be terrible and all this talk of zombies will take a back seat to getting a good night's sleep and staying alive. If you are well fed and not in pain, your life will be better.
I have seen people try to analyze and analyze and read books and ponder the meaning of it all and seen how unhappy these people are. Enjoy life, do no harm to others, keep your eyes and ears open, and don't give yourself a headache like the New Agers I see who are constantly trying to "experience growth" while never being able to be satisfied with what they have be it their house, their relationships, or simply accepting the realities of life.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
November 27, 2010 at 3:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Ah, but zombies DO exist AND they often employ extraordinary measures to make it seem they don't. You've all seen them---shells of animated skin chatting away on their cellphones while they drive, endlessly texting others of their kind communicating mostly about nothing as their central nervous systems suffer terminal hijack."
Draxor (anonymous profile)
November 22, 2010 at 10:37 a.m.
Read my October 23, 2010 at 2:13 a.m. post on the following link regarding the above comment! Draxor is not a zombie but a robot manufactured by Hewlitt Packard and is controlled by me. You will do as we tell you, Draxor is my droid, and we dolphins shall rule your soiled universe.
http://www.independent.com/news/2010/...
sixdolphins (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2010 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey 6D,
Posting at 2:13 a.m.?
Do dolphins ever sleep?
just wondering
wondering (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2010 at 9:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here is an article to answer that question: http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mamm...
Also, look at how many other dolphins use this blog:
http://www.independent.com/users/seve...
http://www.independent.com/users/eigh...
http://www.independent.com/users/elev...
sixdolphins (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2010 at 10:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
6D,
You guys are amazing. Here's one for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojydNb...
wondering (anonymous profile)
November 28, 2010 at 11:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
@truth_machine (5th of all comments)
My question was rhetorical, but thank you for the book recommendation. I will try and put Thomas Metzinger's book on my reading list--unfortunately, that list grows at a rate that FAR outstrips the rate at which the books are read. . . .
equus_posteriori (anonymous profile)
November 29, 2010 at 2:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BillClausen, you write:
"Sense data received is a tangible thing, creation of one's mind is a subjective thing therefore the statement is contradictory."
How is data tangible? Be careful how you use words.
My point is this, to re-state: we think we know what the "objective world" is. And most would define the objective world as "tangible." But we have no idea what the objective world really is, the "thing in itself"; this is a point made many times over by philosophers and others, including Kant, Schopenhauer, Descartes, etc. What we do know is our subjective world and we can reasonably assume that our subjective world is based on an independently-existing objective world (though some Buddhists would debate this). So we when I write that our worlds are entirely created by our minds, I mean this literally: we receive data from an apparently objective reality, which we can never know in itself, and we create a subjective world based on that data. There is clearly a correspondence between objective and subjective worlds, but we don't and never will know the precise relationship. We can infer, reasonably, based on the many lines of evidence presented in my columns, that all "objective" things are also subjects for themselves.
Schopenhauer's The World as Will and Representation delves into these issues in some detail. I don't agree with all of his views by any means but he's right on this one.
TamHunt (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2010 at 2:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I wish you well Mr. Hunt and I don't know where you and some of the others get the energy that you expend on all this but as for me, this requieres way too much work and time.
Intellectual curiosity is a good thing, but peace of mind is essential.
I would only say that I hope you take the time out to smell the roses, enjoy a sunset, and not get so caught up in trying to figure out life that life itself passes you by.
billclausen (anonymous profile)
November 30, 2010 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Turn off you TV set, Bill, and you'll have more time for such pursuits.
truth_machine (anonymous profile)
December 1, 2010 at 12:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)