Calling for Consistency

Could it be that the ADL and the NPFH groups are leftist organization which wouldn't dare admit that Christians are persecuted? (Think Sudan)

For what it's worth, google in "Assyrian Genocide" and read about all the atrocities that went on as well. (Coinciding with the time that fellow Christians the Armenians were being likewise tortured and slaughtered)

I know just from the stories my grandmother told me that the persecution of Assyrians was terrible, and I learned later that my Assyrian great-grandparents were killed in Turkey during the massacre of the Armenians.

Based on the connect-the-dots theory methinks many of these so-called "Anti-hate" groups are just fronts for leftist political agendas which is loathe to see Christians as anything other than persecutors.

That having been said, I also denounce any unfair treatment of ALL groups, including Muslims.

The ADL isn't the only institution objecting to the "genocide" label for the Armenian tragedy of 1915. Unlike other genocides of the 20th century which the world has been slow or reluctant to acknowledge, the Armenian Tragedy is conspicuous for the number of reputable and highly qualified historians and demographers who have rejected the "genocide" label for this complex event. When the arguments of both sides of this complex issue are carefully examined, it becomes quite clear that the denial is coming from the Armenian side, not the Turkish side. Furthermore, the Armenian side is well organized and they have repeatedly demonstrated their determination to seduce our most vulnerable politicians with guaranteed deliveries of large blocks of votes in a desperate campaign to legislate their version of "the truth". These Armenian Agitators are promoting a disinformation campaign filled with lying propaganda and ethnic hatred against the Turkish People.
These deaths were truly tragic but many of us believe that the word "genocide" should be reserved for deliberate attempts to exterminate an ethnic group. When we examine the facts and acknowledge the amount of lying that has been coming from the Armenian side, it becomes abundantly clear that the events of 1915, tragic as they were, were not a "genocide" as the word is normally understood -anymore than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in which hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were killed or horribly maimed for life, was a genocide. It was not a deliberate attempt to exterminate an ethnic group.

The United Nations excluded warring parties from the definition of ‘genocide’ upon Raphael Lemkin’s recommendation. Armenians were a party in a major world conflict against the Turks. Their leaders boasted in 1918 that 150,000 armed Armenians men volunteered in the Russian Army. 30,000 armed Armenians fought elsewhere.

Armenians were busy wiping out the Moslems living in Eastern Anatolia in an attempt to gain majority in the cities they wished to declare their autonomy at a time when the Ottoman Empire was being attacked by major imperialist powers of the times. Any war sounds like a genocide if the dead of only one side is counted.

The Armenians are now carrying out a campaign to distort the truth with false documents and propaganda methods. However, we are not all ignorant to swallow their claims at face value.

Our historical evaluation can not be labeled as denial. Objecting to one sided opinion is definitely not denial.

ADL and NPFH cannot be bullied.

My grandmother told me stories are no substitute for the likes of Nuremberg Trials. Turks have their grandmother stories, plus unearthed mass graves to verify those stories.

If they wished to search the truth, Armenians would open the ARF archives just like the Turks opened up the Ottoman Archives.

Actually, Foxman quickly flip-flopped after a lot of very high-profile Jews called him on his usual extremism.

Having said that, I must regretfully cite REAL holocaust denial - the murder of tens of millions of Christians by (mostly) Jews in the Russian sphere of influence back around the time that "The Holocaust" of Jews was being perpetrated by Hitler. What, you never heard that Jews murdered more Christians than Nazis murdered Jews in the first half of the 20th Century? Well, welcome to the world where Old Canards surely appear to apply, inexorably so when one does one's homework, & where book publishing is dominated by Jews, as is corporate news and Hollywood! (cont.)

No, really, it's not just finance and jewelry (who-elry?) and furs, with great influence also in academia, law, GOVERNMENT, .... etc. Quite laudable, except that their power is combined with an Israel-first-and-America-be-damned ethic that seems to be just about universal among Jews, given that they virtually NEVER cite the huge role of Jewish influence in our foreign policy. Omerta suggests that tribe comes first for virtually all Jews. "Jews must stand apart," according to Deputy National Security Advisor Elliot Abrams. (cont.)

Alexandr Solzhenitzyn got a Nobel Prize for writing The Gulag Archipelago, but have you even heard of his recent book, called "200 Years Together. The Jews in the Soviet Union."? It's already fading from obscurity to black-out, just like the statements made by Churchill about unsavory Jewish history in Russia, Ukraine, etc. Jesus and other New Testament figures made statements about Jews that are never written about or mentioned anymore, as far as I can tell, except by blogging mavericks. We're so PC about Jews, maybe we'll get a cookie or something... NOT! We'll get financial ruin, false-flag terrorism and nuclear war, more likely. (cont.)

So what are we left with?... Hitler as the only monster, whose crimes occured in a vacuum. Lenin said he never met a clever Russian who wasn't Jewish, or at least had some Jewish blood in him... like he did himself. He also talked about exterminating (i.e., killing as in dead) the bourgeoisie, a class defined as small-holders who had to hire one or more helpers at harvest time. Russian priests and churches were burnt en masse, while synagogues and rabbis went unmolested. The commissars directing this holocaust on the ground were 90% Jewish. The Politburo varied in percentage of Jews, and the founders of communism were of course Jewish. Yeah, they have a tribal track record of overturning apple carts, as we may very well see here. (cont.)

Eventually, Stalin's paranoia turned against some Jews, but this does not disprove the mainly Jewish nature of the Russian holocaust.

We may see a gross over-reaction against Jews when non-Jews are all suddenly real poor... too bad Jewry just can't figure out when enough is enough!

Bottom line, if we're not clever enough to acknowledge ALL holocausts, we may be seeing more!

PS - I thought I had posted with quotation marks around "The" only, in "The" Holocaust of Jews. It got posted as "The Holocaust." I assuredly didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a holocaust! Unfortunately, it has that appearance, as posted above! Does Indy have editing software?? I'm not sure what happened.

Let's be perfectly clear: The ADL is a fund raising tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Mr. Foxman is more concerned about Israel keeping cozy relations with the turks and also the possible backlash to the Jews living in Turkey if the ADL were to actually support the recognition of the Armenian Genocide. That is the only reason he is against the official recognition of the Armenian genocide. He said so himself.

Let's also be perfectly clear that the Armenian Genocide has been studied over and over again....Other then Turks and a handful of their paid historians, who's sole purpose is to deny the Armenian Genocide, no one doubts the historical validity of The Armenian Genocide. This includes the International Association of Genocide Scholars. 23 countries including Germany, Turky's own ally, who saw first hand the atrocities committed. Multiple first hand diplomatic eye witnesses plus archival material including 37000 pages in our own US Archives describing the systematic, brutal extermination of turkey's Armenian, Greek and Assyrian population. No, this was Genocide pure and simple and not some creation of the "Armenian Lobby."

The Turks are running out of people willing to lie for them soley for gain. Unfortunatly the ADL is still one of them. Both need to come to terms with with the facts of the Armenian Genocide.

To suhelya: The fact that my grandmother told me things of her childhood doesn't negate that similar atrocities may have occured againts the Turks which is why I made clear the point that I denounce unfair treatment of any group, including Muslims.

As Adonis Tate points out--and as I pointed out in my first blog--there is a phony P.C. sensitivity in this country and often when we see polticians cozying up to groups who are supposedly anti-racist but who refuse to acknowledge ALL forms of racism.

About four years ago, the News-Press ran a story about a woman named Merideth (or it could have been "Melinda") Brace, who is the daughter of Judge George Eskin and the step-daughter of Hannah-Beth Jackson. Ms. Brace had just pulled her third-grade son out of Harding school because despite her extensive involvement in trying to get the test scores of that school up to snuff, she realized her best effort were futile. The reason this was news was because at that time, her son was the only White kid in the school. She also pointed out that not one kid ever invited her son over to a birthday party and when he invited his classmates over to his, only one kid showed up.

I think it's safe to say that had this been a non-White child pulling out of an otherwise all-White school there would have been much controversy so why weren't all the people who pride themselves as being anti-hate at least looking into this?

Once again, double standard.

Lets be clear: these self-proclaimed genocide "scholars" that the Armenians are so fond of quoting in support of their claims operate as a closed interest group or club. Impartial Historians report and uncover historical facts; the services of these self-proclaimed genocide "scholars" are not needed.

Lets be clear: The Armenians' claim that "no one doubts the Historical Validity of the Armenian Genocide" is nothing but a blatant lie.

Lets be clear: The Armenians' assertion that "23 countries do not doubt the Armenian Genocide" is deceitful propaganda. Legislators clearly have a vested interest in pleasing their voters; they are not elected to decide on historical facts nor are they qualified to do so.

Lets be clear: Nothing in the US archives can negate the clear historical fact that the Armenians couldn't have picked a worse time to collude with their Christian Brethren in "Holy Russia" against the Moslem Ottoman Empire which -after the outbreak of World War One in 1914 found itself surrounded on all sides by the armies of nations much more powerful than its own. Armenians need to stop denying the reality of the situation.

Let's be clear, the International Association of Genocide Scholars gets paid by noone. Unlike the very small handful of turkish paid historians, Mccarthy, Lewis, Mongo, Shaw etc....specifically to ignore most all facts, just to deny the Armenian Genocide.

Lets be clear, Germany , first hand eye witness of this genocide, who today has a population of 4 - 5 million turks living in it's borders, says it was Genocide. How many Armenians live in Germany?

Lets be clear,:23 countries do officialy recognize the Facts Of the Armenian Genocide. If this is "deceitful propaganda based upon voters" then you give the Armenians way to much credit. Thank you. It's based upon truth.

Lets be clear: the Armenain, Greek and Assyrian Genocides is a historical fact weather the turks want the rest of the world to along with their re-creation version of history.

To: P_Connolly...a Turk hidding under a "Western" name..

The Genocide of the Armenians (along with the Greek Genocide) is a well documented historical event.
Please understand that the only country that denies the Armenian Genocide is Turkey for obvious reasons. No one else denies it!
The so-called historians you mentioned about, who claim that the AG never happened, are the few Western (mainly American) "historians" who have concentrated their lives on the denial of of the AG for years now because they love million dollar bribes.
Let's be clear here...they're only few and no one really pays attention to them when it comes to the acknowledgement of the AG! They have never succeeded, so why are you even mentioning them?

Also, please note that Turkey has used all of its resources to deny the AG for years now and it has not succeeded. Today, Turkey is hanging on to the last string so to speak...I would say that Turkey's denial campaign failed about 5-6 years ago. Turkey is being pressured from left and right, especially from EU states to recognize its atrocities.
Please understand that if there was no genocide, no government in the world would have spent time on recognizing it.
Your excuse of "Legislators clearly have a vested interest in pleasing their voters; they are not elected to decide on historical facts nor are they qualified to do so" is true in some sense, but not when it comes to official governmental recognition of anything. These intererests you're talking about only work in local (city/district) politics. My point is that if AG was a BS, 23 countries (not to mention most of US states and other non-national recognitions within different countries) would have not recognized something that's is based on a lie..
Also, even your dear Erdogan is not denying the fact that there were massacres of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, so why are you denying it?
Erdogan claims that the number were less and that the Turks suffered too! He never stated that it's all a lie on the Armenian part!
You speak about archives...hmmm...Are you sure that every single document of the Ottoman Empire is out in the open? Think again please! That's something that a 5 year would have claim.
Again, you Turks can't even make up your mind on what has happened to the Armenians in 1915! One states that both sides suffered, another claims that there was no Genocide at all...as in no Armenian was killed, another one states that only Armenians killed the Turks, your politicans claim that the number of Armenians killed were much less than 1.5 million, other Turkish politicans claim that Armenians were killed in mass numbers, but let the historians look at it, and not various governments.
I mean if you're denying something, why not have a one collective denial, because it's not clear what the Turkish stance is on this issue when you twist the event as it fits your interests depending on the political currrents of that period.

Also, haven't you realized that the Turkish denial doesn't matter anymore? Just in case if you're wondering why it's the Armenian Diaspora who is getting recognitions from governments for what has happened in 1915, it's because before 1990 Armenia was part of the Soviet Union, so there was not much Armenia (as a country) could have done because we were not a country, but part of the SU. This is why only the Diaspora Armenians were able to work on the recognition of the Armenian genocide. Please do not forget that the Treaty of Kars has not been ratified, and Armenia has a legal claim on it's Western provinces that are now in Turkey.
So....my point is that the Turkish denial has failed over the past few years. The only reason why the Turks are more mobilized in denying the AG and attacking Armenian establishments (vandalizing them) around Europe is because they have nothing else to hang on to anymore, so they're trying to act more aggressively now than ever before. Just look at how the Turkish (political may I add) killing of the Armenian journalist Hrant Dink a year ago was publicized around the world.

Let's look at who actually likes Turkey as a neighbor....
There's the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian Genocides, with the illegal occupation of Cyprus since 1970s. The dislike of Arabs and Persians when it comes to Turkish people, and the dislike of certain ethnicities in the Balkans for the same killings of the Turks throughout the history. Murders of the Bulgarians by the Turks in late 1800's and the Kurdish ethnic murders that's going on in present day civilized Turkey. Makes you wonder!

Because of the following reasons the events which took place during the World War I between the Turks and Armenians can not be considered as genocide:

1) After the Ottoman State was defeated in the 1st World War in 1918, the French and English arrested 144 high level Ottoman veteran or civil officials including the ex-prime ministers, ex-deputies, governors and many newspapermen, and banished them to Malta Island, assuming their guilt for the death of Armenians. However, the English High Commissary could not find any reliable evidence against these officials, neither in the English nor in Ottoman Archives. In chief of the Ottoman Archives was an Armenian official . Lord Curzon asked help of American government. Sir A.Geddes, Washington Ambassador of England reported on July 13, 1921 that his cooperative study with the American Foreign Ministry on all the reports of the American ambassadors about the Armenians' death unfortunately revealed no proof against the Turkish prisoners in Malta’. Therefore, no indictment could be prepared and the English Royal Attorney-General could not bring suit. So, the Malta prisoners all had to be made free in 1921. Note also that all the proofs that the Armenians still present to support genocide thesis including the diary of Ambassador Morgenthau, the telegrams of Aram Andonian and others were published long before these trials. But, the English and French invaders and the Americans did not accept them reliable and therefore looked for real evidences.
2) When the deportation were under way, the Armenians of the big cities were exempted, İstanbul, İzmir, Aleppo, where there were a great population of Armenians lived. Additionally, Katholic and Protestan Armenians were also exempted.
3) It is another striking point that in 1916, a new law letting the Armenians return their homes and claim their property was issued.
4) The Ottoman government tried more than 1300 men for not having taken the necessary measures during the migration and convicted many and executed several in 1916, because of the documented and horrible massacres of the deportee columns (Reporting of Talat Pasha published in Berliner Tageblatt Newspaper on 4 May 1916 ; the order sent to provinces from the Ottoman government dated 1June 1915 from Prime Ministry Ottoman Archieve SHFR, nr 54/9)
5) Not all the historians support the genocide thesis.
6) The Armenians performed hundreds of revolts against the Ottomans, being organized by Armenian committees Hınchak and Dashnak and inflicted horrible massacres upon the Turks and Muslims, beginning late 19.century. 527 000 Turks were slayed by Armenian volunteers in the Russian Army. ..........
7).....

7) In 1915, there were 16 Armenian senators in the Ottoman senate. The Ottoman ministry of commerse and ambassador to England were Armenian till 1914. The Ottomans offered a chair to Armenian Bogos Nubar Pasha who later joined the talks of Sevres Treaty as the representative of the Armenians, but he did not accept.

8) Genocide is the highest crime in human history. Under the 1948 UN Convention, the authority to prosecute and proclaim genocide is reserved for the International Court of Justice and the competent domestic courts of party States—not a legislative body. Holocaust was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process, not by the parliaments. Why did the Armenians not bring their genocide allegation before the International Court of Justice?
The answer is simple: Because they know that their thesis is not supported by historical facts and the documents they have presented to public consists of forgeries. It is also because of this that they fiercefully reject discussing the issue in a joint commission composed of Turkish, Armenian historians and additionally historians from other nations. Instead they lobby and urge parliamentary assemblies to recognize the so-called genocide.
Is it not striking that Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America has recently announced ‘We don’t need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically’’? And is it not also striking that the director of the Armenian Archives replied the director of Turkish Archives who suggested to examine both the Armenian and Turkish Archives jointly, that they did not care of the archives but all they cared of was what the world thought?
And I wonder how long the world will go on being blind and deaf!

The most important and unacceptable attitude this passage displayed about the tragedies in 1915’s, in Anatolia is that it had not even touched at the tragedy the Ottoman Turks/Muslims suffered, during the same period. Such that:
The Armenians performed hundreds of revolts against the Ottomans, being organized by Armenian committees Hınçak and Taşnaksütyan (24 revolts only in September to December 1895). In 1905, the Armenians killed all the Turks and Muslims who lived in Suşa in Azarbaijan (Russian newspaper Novoye Obozrenye 6 September 1905). They do not want to remember that their grandfathers who struggled against the Ottomans in Armenian-Russian troops murdered 40% of the Muslim population in Van, Bitlis, Erzurum. ‘The Turks who had been slaughtered like animals were buried in large holes in the Eastern Anatolia’ writes Russian Lieutenant Colonel Twerdo-Khlebof in his diary (www.tsk.mil.tr/ermeni_sorunu/arsiv_belge...). Many mass graves have been found in the Eastern Anatolia. The Armenians who were invited to investigate these mass graves many times, insistently rejected these offers. Armenian Soviet historian A.A.Lalayan stated that the Dashnaks displayed extreme courage to massacre Turkish women, children and ill and old people (Contrarevolyutsionnıy ‘Daşnaktsutyun’ İ İmperialisti-çeskaya Voyna 1914-1918 gg.’, Revolyutsionnıy Vostok, No.23, p.92, 1936).
(will go on in the next box)

the rest of the previous message:
While the number of the Ottoman Armenians who had to immigrate for security was 500 000, the number of Muslims who had to immigrate to Anatolia’s more secure places to escape from the Russian- Armenian attacks in the Eastern Anatolia and Caucasia was 1 million, only during 1916 and 1917. Death rate among these immigrants and additionally the Turkish troops, because of cholera, typhus, dysentery outbreaks were very high. In Syria and Lebenon, massy death occurred because of poverty. English ships attacked the ships which carried wheat to Lebenon and had them sunk (Özdemir H,2005).
The sorrows suffered by the Turks in the 1st World War were not less than those the Armenians suffered. However, I feel deep sorrow not only for the Turks/other Muslims but for the Armenians also, because of the tragedy they suffered during the 1st World War. The Armenians had been our brothers and sisters for 800 years and still they are. However I expect the same feelings from the Armenians too. I am deeply sorry for them, since they are pledged by the hatred inside of them, which is continuously fed by their incapacitated leaders and which prevents them from focusing on even historical realities. They founded an outlaw terrorist organization ASALA and murdered 39 innocent Turkish diplomats. They pursued a ‘slandering campaign towards the Turkish Republic, lending support to three major documents which have already been shown by both the Turkish and foreign historians to be fake. It is because of this that the Armenians and Armenian diaspora strictly avoids of discussing these events with the historians from both sides, on historical documents from both sides.
Who feels afraid of bringing and displaying his proofs? Overtly, the one who does not trust his proofs.
Is it not?

The Armenians have lived there for almost 3000 years. The turks came in 1070.

The Armenian Genocide actually started in the late 1890's when Abdul Hamid under the guise of responding back to a group of protesting Armenians who wanted civil rights, murdered ten's of thousands as an answer.

The ottomans, thinking they were the master race, for 400 years brutally oppressed the peoples and lands they occupied. No one had rights other then them. They thought they had rights to your land, money , women, livestock, even your life and could take these at will beacuse after all they were the master race. The Nazis later used the ottomans as role models. The ottomas were the most brutal.

During WW1, after losing 62% of it occupation, and sensing ultimate defeat, the only non-turkic group still directly under Ottoman control were the Armenian, Greek and Assyrian populations. The Europeans and Arabs were by now free from this oppression,

Feeling nationalistic pride, the ottomans decided to preserve the only last piece of land and make it one homoginious ethnic turkic lands and so decided to cleanse all of anatolia of non-turkic peoples. WW1 gave them the perfect cover. Besides being homoginious, the turks also wanted the Armenian's wealth as the Armenians were very well to do and the turks didn't like this either.

On April 24, 1915, the official start of the Armenian Genocide, In Constantinople, 250 or so Armenian Intellectuals, and leaders were rounded up and without a trial, simply executed. This led to where 2.5 million unarmed Armenian men women and children, were forced to march out of their homes, with only the shirts on their backs to be "relocated" to an empty deseart. Most were tortured and murder in the process.

Yes many trurks did die in WW1. But not at the hands of the Armenians. 1.5 million Armenians died by the direct orders given by Talaat Pasha..

The turks were never formally punished even though there was some mock trials. Being the master race and neading to cover up their crimes, so created stories of mass turkish murders by Armenians. As if the Armenians had the ability to murder thousand of turks yet couldn't stop the genocide. So they demonize the victim as they still do today.

Today, turkey spends millions on the denial of the Armenian genocide. They pay a handfull of mercinary "historians" to ignore all facts in order to deny the Genocide. They hang their hats on these hand full of "historians". There can't be any open discussion in turkey or else go to jail. (article 301) You might still get killed. (Hrant Dink). Their intellectuals hide underground for fear of their own safety. All minorities still feal unsafe in turkey.

The Armenian Genocide is a studied, proven, well documented, eyewitnessed Fact!

To Suzy:

I am not surprised at the number of propagandists attacking the persona of those who present logical explanations and ‘accuse’ them of being Turkish. With the same token Armenians should be banned from speaking on the subject as they are very well prejudiced and biased.

I invite you to find ‘millions’ in the accounts of the historians who have concluded that 1915 events cannot be labeled as geno. Armenian propagandists are quick to slander when they are left speechless.

You are insinuating that there are some unopened archive material in Turkish archives. Why do you not mention that ZERO percent of Armenian Dashnak archives located in Boston are opened. The only person, who studied them, a PhD. Student named Yekta was jailed in the Republic of Armenia for buying books that were sold in Armenia.

Since Armenia became a republic in 1990 the population has dropped down by one third in the country. Over 40,000 Armenians escaped into Turkey. Have you wondered why?

As for regards to Kars treaty, Republic of Armenia is the only country who turned back on that agreement. They had signed it 90 years ago, now they are renegotiating. As for their claims on Eastern Anatolia, do not fool yourself. The land you claim is home to 20 million Turks now. Armenian claims are not bringing peace to the region, or to their country.

You are saying that Turkish denial has failed, I doubt that you can materialize your land claims of Western Armenia.

In the light of your insults do not blame me for asking you this, but ‘Who likes Armenia or Armenians?’ Take a look at neighbors of Armenia. Is there any one they respect? What about Armenia’s illegal occupation of Karabagh?

To whoever is pretending to be ‘the truth 1001’, but in fact is definitely not reliable.

Whenever a scientist disagrees with Armenian commissars, they are insulted as if they are paid agents of some evil establishment. Armenians on the other hand act as if they have every right to propagandize their self serving agenda and falsifying historical truth. Their last act is creation of an agency called ‘Genocide scholars’. Who decides if their credentials are fit is beyond the world body. Their only specialty seems to accept ‘Armen geno’ hook line and sinker.

There is enough diplomatic eye witnesses plus US archive material to prove the Turks were victims of a world war and not aggressors. IT is not very honest that you are selecting only material suiting your pre determined conclusion.

Where are the Turks who owned 80% of Bulgaria’s land titles? How many Turks are left in Selanik if not Mora, and Crete? At the turn of the century two third of the Balkan population was Muslim. Where are they now? Does anybody have ‘my grandmother told me stories’ of how soldiers who were assigned to accompany them on their way to Anatolia shared their bread ration with those poor women and children during their escape into Turkish Anatolia?

Armenians have plenty of liars and brainwashed Christian brothers to propagate their false stories. They will be humiliated when they examine the truth.

I could very well claim that Prof. Willmar Keiser is in the pocketbook of the Diaspora just like Taner Akcam. One German does not mean 4 million Turks living in Germany or the German government have examined in depth events regarding World War I events of Eastern Anatolia.

Only Armenian propagandists claim without any substance that self defense against Armenian or Greek aggression should be labeled geno-.

Suheyla: All I can say to you about me being "brainwashed" or a "liar" is that according to what I was told by my grandmother, parents, and family, my grandmother was born in Iran and my grandfather was born in Turkey. They were Assyrians who left because of persecution. Turks and Kurds were mentioned as being the reason they left.

It is possible that my family made all this up and that my grandparents faked their Assyrian accents and that it all could have been a mass propaganda campaign but why would these people do that?

The point I'm making does not neccesarily negate your other arguments, but to say I'm a liar is false, because I'm telling you what I know according to what I was told, and to say that I'm brainwashed is like saying that John F. Kennedy is running a convenience store in Omaha, Nebraska; it's possible but HIGHLY unlikely.

Also, when you say that certain people should be "banned" from speaking, that makes me suspicious. If you are so sure about your facts, then you would welcome these people because if they are allowed to speak, then that gives you the opportunity to set the story straight. I would never think of saying that you should be banned from speaking--or writing what is on your mind and have no objection to you saying the things that you do because it gives me the opportunity to respond about the things that I know about.

I admit that you bring up some interesting points and look forward to seeing more of your posts in the future, but when you say things about me that are not true or fly in the face of logic, you then detract from whatever valid points you may have. -Bill-

The Turkish position is that the deaths did indeed occur but that they did not occur in a genocide. Due to the seriousness and complexity of the situation and the number of Turks who died at the hands of Armenians (and the way they died) they are outraged at what some among the Diaspora Armenians are doing: namely putting this event in the same category with Hitler's Germany. Occasionally some Turks say "there was no genocide" meaning that though the deaths occurred, they did not occur in a genocide. They are not denying the deaths, even when they say "There was no genocide".

No one is suggesting that your grandparents made all this up. But neither did the Turks' grandparents make up their stories.

Regarding Suheyla's comments about being "banned": Note that "Suzy" had stated that "P. Connolly is a Turk hiding under a 'Western' name". In fact I am not a Turk nor am I related -even by marriage- to a Turk. I'm an American who happens to have studied Turkish History and Culture in depth. But how telling it is that my right to speak in this forum is being challenged because "Suzy" thinks I'm a Turk. If I were a Turk, should I be banned from speaking in this forum ? Should my arguments not be heard if I were Turkish and not truly American ? What possible motive could Suzy's words have other than ethnic hatred ? Armenians and Assyrians should stop to think about what is happening here. Both are Christian Peoples and the Turks are predominantly a Moslem People. Is it fitting and proper that you -as Christians- come here to the West making these charges, listening only to what you have heard from your ancestors and your leaders without due regard for the truth and without regard for the biblical teachings on love for your fellow man and forgiveness? Is it fitting that you should come here to your Christian Brethren in America asking for help in settling your old score with "those Moslem Turks" - an unsettled score from a war of nearly a century ago?

P_Connolly,

First of all, I never claimed that you're a hater, so do not call me names please. Keep your false assumptions to yourself please. I don't think I said anything to really offend you, so you have no reason to label me in any way.

To Suheyla,

Yes, I did claim that no neighboring county likes the Turks. It is a fact! They have never gotten along with anyone. You ask who likes Armenia? The list is long, but I can tell you who doesn't....the only countries that don't are Turkey and Azerbaijan, but they're both the same nation, so it's obvious why they would hate us...so it's really only one nation that hates us.

You mentioned Karabakh... who where the Turks or where were they when Armenians have been living in the Anatolian Plateau for close to 3,000 years? We have churches older than the Turkish nation itself...The same goes to the Greeks and Assyrians!
Turkey to this day illegally occupies the island of Cyprus...this just shows you that the Turkish aggression towards its neighbors has no end, even today!
When we were building Christian churches, creating our own unique alphabet, etc Turks were bunch of nomads in Central Asia...am I making this up to perhaps? Perhaps Turks have been living in present day Turkey for 3,000 years as well, but it's just that we haven't seen them in the neighborhood.

Unlike Turkey, Armenia is liked by its neighbors, whether it's Russia, Iran, or Georgia. It's also liked by the EU countries & the Arab world. The list of the countries that do no like the Turks are much bigger...ours is only the Turks so far....
The bottom line is that we can spend hours and days debating whether it was Genocide or something else, but the fact is that it has been acknowledged as Genocide by most scholars and historians...except the Turks and the few non-Turks who have been sold out.

Perhaps you're going to tell me that Cyprus is also Turkey and that Turkey's actions are justified in regards to 1974? Maybe Turks are also justified in vandalizing Armenian properties, whether those are Armenian restaurants, genocide monuments, churches, or any other Armenian establishments all over the Europe? It's going on to this day! Makes you wonder about lots of things!
Just recently, about 500 Turkish thugs broke into an Armenian cafe in Brussels and almost destroyed the place....The civilized Turks at their best behavior inside Europe! Even more recent news... a months ago or so, in Cardiff (Wales), Turks desecrated an Armenian Genocide monument.
There have been much more incident like this before, but I only stated the most recent ones that happened in the last few months or so..
Even though the financial loss of the Armenian restaurant owner was a lot, but I think that Turks lost their credibility again by behaving like they did in Europe. The incident was widely publicized.

Also, both of you claim that the deaths did not amount to genocide and that Armenian Diaspora was successful in its campaign of making the events seem bigger than what they were right?
Well, that only means that the whole world is stupid and it's made up of bunch of idiots and the Armenians are the most smart people, since they were able to convince the whole world that what has happened to them was simply a Genocide!
Of course, this isn't the case, and you're giving us more credit than we deserve, and if anything was based on a lie, the genocide would have not been recognized by so many historians, countries, states, etc...the list goes on.

Again, just because Turkey doesn't recognize it and comes up with number of justifications every year, does not mean that it did not happen. It's obvious why Turkey would deny it and spread its denial campaign. Unless, everyone around is stupid, the Armenian genocide "lie" would not have been successful anywhere!

To zicli:

How many years will we hear the Turks bring up ASALA?
No one is saying that what they did was right...you complain about 39 Turkish diplomats? How about 1,500,000 people? Do you see any difference in these figures by any chance? Also, has it occurred to you that after what happened to the Armenians, including the loss of historical Armenia, there was nothing the Armenians could have done in regards to recognition? The fake trials in Turkey didn't do much to punish the perpetrators! Those were the 80's, Armenians did not get any justice after 1915, Armenia was part of the SU, which means that Armenia could not have played any role in any recognition or anything related to the Genocide, so few Armenians who were fighting in Lebanon (Diasporan Armenians) decided to shed light on the event through assassinating Turkish diplomats. How long did that last? About 4-5 years, after which they decided that the road to recognition and shedding light on the event was not going to be through murder. Does the organization exist today? No! So why is Turkey still stuck on those few Armenians whose actions are most certainly unjustified and who only lasted for few years, since that path wasn't going to do anything for them. How about the Turkish Grey Wolves terrorist organization that still exist today, and have been murdering the Kurds for decades now? What do you have to say about the Grey Wolves? At least ours wasn't big and didn't last long...it was the product of what was going on in Lebanon during the 1980's....So please stop using the ASALA excuse because the Grey Wolves' terrorist actions have been longer and had bigger consequences.
Again, I’m not justifying their action, but the way the Turks talk about ASALA is as if ASALA has the same magnitude as Al-Qaeda.

To go back to the Karabakh issue, since someone mentioned it....How was Armenia's action wrong when it came to Karabakh? Turks are newcomers compared to how long people have been living in the region, so how can you claim that Karabakh is Turkish/Azeri? Armenians have always been living in Karabakh, much longer than any Turk, so how come suddenly Turks (I'm referring to Azeris here) have any claim on Karabakh? Again, we have churches in Karabakh that date centuries prior any Turkish invasion of the region.

So what if Stalin carved up Armenian regions and gave it to Azerbaijan? Does it mean that it's Azeri territory now? Stalin was a disgusting pig for the things he has done, and nothing good has ever came out of his actions, including the fact that the current problem that Armenia and Azerbaijan are having is because of him, along with the Russian desire to constantly keep the Caucasus in check for their own involvement and influence. Let’s not forget that it was Azerbaijan who first attacked, and now they're complaining about the fact that they lost the war.

Also, I recently took a course on the Ottoman Turkey at my University and the Genocide was discussed in details, just like it is being discussed in the academic institutions from Korea to US...mentioned Korea because I have a friend from Korea who's an exchange student and he told me that they study the AG at his university.

In the above paragraph (the last paragraph) I meant to say that I took a course on the Ottoman Empire, not the Ottoman Turkey.

If the current Turkish government has nothing to hide, why do they prosecute their own citizens for speaking of the genocide? why is there a penal code (article 301) which they use to suppress any speech regarding the genocide? Punishments range from 6 months to 3 years. They famously jailed a Nobel prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk.

and on a side note..during a visit to Darfur in March 2006 as a guest of the Sudanese government, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan famously dismissed claims that a genocide was taking place in the Darfur region.

Omar Al-Bashir (Sudanese President) recently promised to give Turkish companies priority in the awarding of contracts for the oil investments in Sudan, worth up to 700,000 barrels a day.

cycle of genocide continues...

Forgot to also say that as one of you mentioned above about how some Armenians killed the Turks during 1915...are you saying that Armenians were so stupid as to let themselves be killed? When the city of Van was already surrounded by the Turkish army for the so-called deportation and the state planned genocidal campaign against them, some villages here and there took some arms for defense. Of course, what they had was nothing compared to the way the Turks were armed, but saying that Armenians killed Turks as well; therefore that's not genocide is simply laughable. It’s the fact that the genocide was a well orchestrated plan by the Ottoman government...unless you claim that in order for the event to constitute genocide, Armenians should have NOT taken any defensive measures in a village here and there in order to see if they can defend themselves? I guess the Turks expected the Armenians to sit there and wait to get shot...I don't think that's something any of us will do when we have an army however big or small, outside of our villages/cities waiting to take us away. Any logical person would defend him/herself. That Turkish excuse has also been used before, but has no relevance at all. I highly doubt that we're so stupid as to let ourselves be killed, knowing that maybe, just maybe if we take arms some of us might stay alive.

Also, the claim that Armenians killed more Turks than the Turks killed Armenians is simply absurd. Armenians were mistreated in the Ottoman Empire, just like any Assyrian or Greek minority. Also, we had no right to bear arms and all the minorities (except the Jews) were badly mistreated in the Empire. I highly doubt that few million unarmed (few men in each village secretly keeping a rifle for whatever reason does not constitute that Armenians were armed!) Armenians were able to fight millions of Turks, especially knowing that even though the Ottoman Empire was crumbling already, it was well armed and had one of the strongest armies in the region?
So how would few million mistreated Armenians go against 10 times as many Turks living under the Turkish rule??? Knowing that they will be crushed in the matter of minutes! Such a scenario is possible, as long as the Armenians wanted to commit suicide and put an end to their 3,000 year old existence.
Like I said before, it has been proven that it was genocide and it has been recognized long time ago, otherwise it would not be thought in the academic institutions. I think I already mentioned that the issue is not if the massacres of the Armenians happened, it’s the use of word genocide (the whole issue in US), which will cause number of problems for the Turkish government.

To suheyla:

First of all, I have no idea why you're bringing up the current Republic of Armenia, since the discussion is going on about a completely different issue. BUT… since you mentioned the exodus... I guess you haven't heard that after the fall of the Soviet Union all the newly independent states had the same/similar economic situation?
You mentioned Armenia as if all the states broke off from the SU and had a great economic success right away and Armenia was the only one lagging behind? LOL
You just mentioned Armenia's situation with the population right? So how about mentioning Azerbaijan? Didn't millions escape to Russia? Didn't millions escape throughout the former SU? So what is your point about Armenia to that regards when the same happened to every single country of the SU? Try harder please!

Also, 40,000 Armenians did not immigrate to Turkey. Most Armenians moved to Russia. Also, the Armenians you're talking about didn't "move" to Turkey, they simply had their businesses in Armenia and many would go to Turkey and bring stuff to sell in Armenia, Georgia and Russia. If you’re trying to show Armenia as economically weak state, please think of the numerous times when Turkey was bailed out from a total economic/financial collapse? Before you try to put down Armenia/Armenians, please see if the same doesn’t apply to the Turks because you seriously contradict yourself. Whatever you said about Armenia..the same scenario applies to either Turkey or Azerbaijan.
I guess you forget the situation of Azerbaijan? Forgot about the electricity shortages, water shortages, and the hardships the Turks went through in Azerbaijan during early 90's? HAVING OIL ON TOP OF THAT??? At least we had no such resource and we were in the same situation as Azerbaijan. Now THAT should makes you wonder!!!
Even today, an oil rich country as Azerbaijan has a high poverty rate. The oil $$$ only benefit the few to this day. Then you hear Azeris bragging about their oil resource, as if the whole Caspian Basin is only theirs! They should about their resource when it benefits EVERY single person in Azerbaijan.

Please note that it's them who had oil, not us, but it was us who fought like never before to get some part of our homeland back. It was us without the OIL, but we managed to win the war. Azeris claim that Armenians won because they were helped by the Russians, but weren't the same Azeris helped by TURKEY? LOL
I guess its ok for them to get help by their brothers on the other side, but not for the Armenians??? Says who?
Armenians and Azeris both got help, on top of that, Azerbaijan was an oil rich country, but it managed to still loose! They attacked Armenia first, and they claim that we're the aggressors just because we won the war? This type of 5 year old logic simply amazes me!

Well, I can just imagine if there's another war between the two countries and if Armenia pushes further into the so-called Azerbaijan, I wonder what type of names the Armenians will be called by the Azeris even if it’s them attacking Armenia again?

"Is it fitting and proper that you -as Christians- come here to the West making these charges, listening only to what you have heard from your ancestors and your leaders without due regard for the truth and without regard for the biblical teachings on love for your fellow man and forgiveness?"

First of all, I was born in the U.S., I didn't "come here". Secondly, I am not beholden to any Assyrian groupthink, I only know what I've been told by my family of firsthand accounts. Third, forgiveness is not an issue with me on this matter since I don't hate Turks in the first place and do not feel that they owe me anything. To punctuate that thought, if an Assyrian group came up to me and said that I was entitled to recompense from the Turks, I'd tell that group to grow up and go away since no one owes me a thing.

The original point of this discussion thread was the inconsistancy of how some groups can claim victim status while others are forever condemned by politically correct thought to be perpetrators.

I don't know what nationalities any of those blogging here are, and it doesn't matter since all are entitled to share their life experiences. My main point is that I'm stating the case that here in the U.S., there is a tendency to ignore race/hate crimes when the victims are White, male, and specifically, Christian--the third category being my main thrust. I'm not saying "oh poor me" be any means, but I am pointing out that if we do not see this inconsistency, then true reconciliation (a favorite buzz word among the P.C. left) cannot come to pass and in fact, human nature being what it is, will only result in a situation where people will resent each other more.

In Sweden, pastor Ake Greene was jailed for preaching against homosexuality. He wasn't calling for violence, but simply citing what the Bible says about homosexuality, yet Sweden prides itself on being oh-so tolerant. We see the first amendment being perverted to fit the agenda of those who hate Christianity. It's all about being P.C. and inconsistent.

As I said before, the same standard must apply to ALL religions and races, but when so much money is being made in the name of victimhood, one is more likely to see the simple replacement of one form of hatred with another.

So much for the message of peace and love that we heard about it the 60's.

"Is it fitting and proper that you -as Christians- come here to the West making these charges, listening only to what you have heard from your ancestors and your leaders without due regard for the truth and without regard for the biblical teachings on love for your fellow man and forgiveness?"

Come to the West? As if Armenia is in far East? Are you familiar with geography by any chance? I don't listen to my ancestors...again the AG is well documented fact, so I'm not going to kep repeating myself over and over again. Since Armenians, as the first Christian nation who accepted Christianity as a national religion in 301AD, must forgive the Turks for what they did to us, when all we're getting from them is a slap in the face in regards to the constant denial of their murders?
I have no problem with forgiving anyone, only if they admit of their wrong doings and apologize. In case of Turkey, with its constant denial campaing, I think forgiveness is not on the Armenian side.

The charges have been made against Turkey long time ago... not by Armenia and not since we "came here" as you put it. As if your ancestors didn't "come here". You said "with due regard for the truth?" And what is that truth you're talking about? That there was no Armenian Genocide? No thanks...let's keep that "truth"in Turkey where it belongs. Again, we can forgive, but not when we see the Turkish stance on the issue. I'm not a religious girl, but I sure know what forgivness is...I also know what Turkish deceit is.
But thanks for the life lesson!
I'll keep that in mind for the future. I heard that the world is a harsh place to live in after college...so will try to use your Christian teachings later on.

The Armenians are sure that these events were Armenian genocide and claim that Turkey does not want to face with her history and so she does not scrap article 301 which restricts freedom of speech. However, Turkish articles obviously do not have any power of sanction on Armenians. Then what is the reason of Armenians’ insistent refusal of Turkey’s suggestions to discuss these events together with historians from both sides? For example:

*In 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events by Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians refused to send their documents which they promised, to the Turkish historians and afterwards the Armenian foreign minister announced that they did not want to discuss the 1915 events with historians.

*Armenia refused the Turkish prime minister's and the Turkish Assembly's invitation announced on 13th April 2005 which suggested to establish a Joint Commission composed of historians from both sides and discuss the events which took place during the 1st World War.

*Turkey sent full page ads to five popular newspapers of the United States (US) calling on Armenia to ‘bring light the events of 1915 together with Turkey and to establish a joint commission composed of historians from both sides in addition to historians from other nations’, in April 2007.

*Why did the Armenian historian Sarafyan, who accepted the recent invitation of the chief of Turkish History Foundation, Halaçoğlu, for cooperation to investigate Harput events, abandon the project, after talking the Armenian diaspora?

*Why are the Armenian archives still closed?

*The archives of Dashnak Party is present in Zoryan Armenian Institute in Boston. Both Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation offered the Armenians to open these archives and promised financial support. Why did the Armenians refuse this suggestion too?

Have you ever seen a victim who passionately accuses somebody of committing crime and giving him great harm but strictly avoids of bringing his proofs before the referees or going to court? And have you ever seen a criminal who persistently calls the victim to bring his evidences?

And what else should Turkey do, to FACE WITH HER HISTORY? Who is afraid of facing with her history? Turkey or Armenia and those who support them?

The reason that the concept of forgiveness is relevant here is that these events happened over 90 years ago and the perpetrators are all quite dead. The Armenians have their grandparents' stories and the Turks have their grandparents' stories. Hearing these stories is troubling - more so when one contemplates the effect that these events have had on one's own life. Powerful emotions are generated by these events and stories. The way we react to these emotions is a personal decision and varies from one individual to another. For some these emotions breed deep-seated hatreds that ultimately find their outlet in criminal behavior or in nonviolent but extremely antisocial or highly unethical behavior such as lying, calumny, and deceit. Others struggle to overcome the tendency toward hatred, examine the facts impartially, and search for the real underlying causes of the disturbances that happened so long ago but continue to have an effect in the lives of the descendents. Armenians, both individually and as a community need to re-examine what has become of them since their ancestors came here decades ago and ask some serious questions about whether their response to these events has been helpful to them, to their host culture, and to the world at large.

Turks gaining more and more respect in Europe day after day.

1) The first clip is directed agains the Kurds.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gkwxGL50IMs&a...

2) The Turkish vandalism and destruction of an Armenian cafe after the HR 106 was passed in US back in October.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=E9P7GpIQzF0&a...

3) Turkish harassments of French-Armenians...in french.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jmoptRbYr-o&a...

I'm all for immigration, but not when it comes to what you see in these clips. Again, the Armenian cafe was destroyed, but much more harm was done to the Turkish communities in Belgium-France. They simply don't understand that these types of actions agains Armenian communities around the world, only helps us to shed light on Armenian genocide through the media, at the same time it makes them look bad all over Europe.

Another reason whyTurks have no place in the EU. Not counting the fact that Turks have no ethnic connections to Europe as well. 800-900 years after the migration from Central Asia doesn't transform them into being European in any way.

I suggest ADL revisit its identity and ask itself what it is.

If its philosophy of establishment really depends on humanism and if it really aims to hinder recurrence of the tragedies of the past and therefore draw attention to the genocides or massacres of the past, what is the reason of its one-sidednes? While naming the death of the Armenians as ‘genocide’, it completely overlooks the massacres inflicted by the Armenians on the Turks and Muslims which started long before the deportation and went on in 1915 and later.

Here are a few links you can connect: *GORDUKLERIM YASADIKLARIM - I witnessed and lived through written by a Russian Lt Colonel- PDF format in Turkish-English-French and original Russian
“The Armenians in the Late Ottoman Period” Published by the Turkish Grand National Assembly 2001, Ankara http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/a...
“Archive Documents About the Atrocities and Genocide Inflicted Upon Turks by Armenians” Published by the Turkish Grand National Assembly, 2002, Ankara http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin3/a...

Were these Turks and Muslims not human beings, or were they not among the human beings that ADL is interested in?

In this situation, it is obvious that ADL ‘s real purpose can not be believed to pursue a humanist action. Rather, ADL seems to act as a company which markets humanism and has invested on the thesis of the Armenians now, which is popular; therefore profitable.

Does it not draw attention of anybody that the Armenian genocide thesis has already become an economic sector in which 1288 lobby foundations are working only in the United States and the Armenians spend 3-6 billion dollars annually for their activities. And does it not draw attention of anybody that this money is more than enough to save Armenia from poverty.

If the Armenians had no doubt about the evidences of their thesis, why have they spent that much money and hired 1288 lobby foundations only in the US, instead of simple actions like going to court? And if they did not feel any doubt about it, what is the reason of their insistent refusal of Turkey’s suggestions to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and historians from other countries?

In this situation do you not ever think that the real purpose of the Armenians is not justice and the truth! Instead they want the public to accept the history which was ordered by them and rewritten as they wished to have been.

And in this conjuncture it is a real dissappointment that ADL has become another component of the present inconsistencies of the world where innocent people can be bombed and killed just as to take them democracy and protect their human rights.

fehmi: Thank you for a most informative post. However, I think you have partially misunderstood ADL's stance on the issue. The ADL is refusing to label the 1915 events as "genocide". Other groups in Boston (primarily Armenians) - formerly allied with the ADL - have broken away from it because of the ADL's stance on this issue.

The Armenians obviously have been trying to rewrite the history as they wish to have been and want to cast the role of innocent victims of a so-called genocide as if they had not performed hundreds of revolts against the Ottomans, being organized by Armenian committees Hınçak and Taşnaksütyan (24 revolts only in September to December 1895). Here are a few evidences from English and Russian Archives which contradict with the Armenian allegations:
* 'The Armenians ejected sulphuric acid to the faces of the Turkish people, fired their houses and
killed them using knife and bullet, in Gaziantep' (Report of English Ambassador Henry
D. Barnhamof Aleppo, dated 16 November 1895).

* In 1905, the Armenians killed all the Turks and Muslims who lived in Susha in Azarbaijan
(Russian newspaper Novoye Obozrenye 6 September 1905).

* Armenian Soviet historian A.A.Lalayan stated that the Dashnaks displayed extreme
courage to massacre Turkish women, children and ill and old people (Contrarevolyutsionnıy 'Dasnaktsutyun' İ İmperialisti-cheskaya Voyna 1914-1918 gg.', Revolyutsionnıy Vostok,
No.2-3, p.92, 1936).

* V.A. Gurko-Kryajin declared that the Muslim folk around Yerivan and Kars were
eradicated and the districts Shuragel, Kağızman, Karakurt, Sarıkamış, Surmali were
fired and destroyed so that the folk were forced to escape, in his book entitled 'Neareast and the States' (V.A. Gurko-Kryajin, Blijniy Vostov i Derjavı, p.93, Nauçnaya
Assotsiatatsiya Vostokovedeniya Pri TsİK SSSR, Moscov, 1925).

* '150 000 Armenian volunteers in Russian Army were the only forces against Turks'
told Armenian Boghos Nubar, in Paris (Times of London , 1919 Jan 30 Link:
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/......)

*'The Turks who had been slaughtered like animals were buried in large holes in the
Eastern Anatolia' writes Russian Lieutenant Colonel Twerdo-Khlebof in his diary
(www.tsk.mil.tr/ermeni_sorunu/arsiv_belge......)

*T. Hachikoglyan, in a speech he delivered, told that the Dashnaks eradicated thousands of
Turks with their bloody hands (T. Haçikoglyan, 10 Let Armyanskoy Sttrelkovoy Divizii,p4-6. İzdatelstvo Polit. Uprav. KKA, Tiflis, 1930).

* Ovanes Kachaznuni (the first prime minister of Armenia) declared that all the tragedies
they lived was the Dashnaks' responsibility and originated from their lack of foreseing
the realities in the report he presented to Dashnak Party's Conference in 1923. ('There is
Nothing that Dashnak Party Can Do')

To Suzy,
I saw your reply today.
I was impressed on your expressing your sorrows on the murder of Turkish diplomats by Armenian ASALA. However, it is more impressing that you have not expressed any emotion on the death/massacre of Turks and Muslims by your Armenian grandparents, except denying! Why Suzy? Why?

I feel sorry for the tragedies your ancestors suffered because I do not feel none of you as enemies but human beings. I feel sorry for individually you too. Perhaps you are as old as my kids and you are one of the young people who has been trapped by hatred, the diasporean version of Armenian culture. It is this hatred that you do not accept any Turkish view and this is what makes you believe that your grandparents were completely innocent and never and never could inflict massacre upon the Turks/Muslims. ‘Hatred’ kidnaps a person's heart and mind and makes the most harm to its owner. It is because of this that I am sorry for you too.

Believe me, I am ready to cry together with you, for your historian sorrows although I have not met any of your grandparents some of whom murdered my grandparents, grand aunts, grand uncles relentlessly, and some served for this land and enriched the Anatolian culture. And what about you Suzy, what about you? Are you also ready to cry together with me, for the tragedies my grandparents suffered which was never less than those your grandparents suffered? I do not want to believe that your heart, a Christian's heart has turned a stone so easily.

About my great grandparents...or my ancestors.

My father's grandfather had 2 PhDs from Unviersity of Zurich and Unviersity of Munich...he was thrown off a 5 story high building during the genocide. His wife lost her mind and died shortly. My grandmother was left an orphan after the age of 5 I think.

My mother's side lived in the Armenian historic city of Van. My mom's great grandfather was shot in his own house by Turkish army/soldiers when they occupied/surrendered the city during the deportations. Anyways, he was shot in his own house by Turks in front of his 5 children and his wife! Then, his wife took a long journey by foot with her 5 kids towards the Russian side of Armenia and God only knows how long that took and what she had to go through at a young age with 5 kids.

I defenetly see a well respected person (with double PhDs (especially for that time) from one of the best Unviersities of Europe, and a well known engineer would have nothing else to do but murder Turks....as you claim.

My mom told me how their far relative (don't remember exactly who...someone on the mother's side) had her stomach slashed open while she was pregnant!
Another woman had her breasts cut of by the Turkish soldiers during when the Turkish army surrounded the city of Van. Oh and my mom's grandmother witnessed how 2 Armenian young girls threw themselves off a bridge into the river after a gang of 5-6 Turks (soldiers) raped them. It's a long story how she survived through everything, so I will end here. This is to give you an idea of what happened to my ancestors on both side.

Any interest how the Turkish government lobbies bribes certain US offiials?

One More Reason to Win – Let Sibel Edmonds Speak

Sibel Edmonds once told me to "put aside 9/11" and instead concentrate on the workings of the Defense Department, amongst other government establishments, because what she had been trying to warn people about was considered by those involved as nothing more than "business as usual." That was the real danger. What she had discovered during her short time with the FBI was so threatening to those doing such "business" that former Attorney General, John Ashcroft, couldn't slap a gag order on her (and Congress) fast enough. But a lot of us already know that.

Truth be known, Dennis Hastert has a hell of a lot more to worry about than the Mark Foley scandal. In fact, he may be seeing the writing on the wall regarding his soon departure from Congress as a welcome relief. However, that result is not only contingent upon a Democratic win in November, but a Democratic majority willing to dig through the tangled mess that is Turkish and American "business relations."

Now, one must understand why Turkey is a big player, albeit a clandestine one, on the world stage; that would be the desperate need for security and acceptance. Turkey shares with Israel common enemies such as Syria, Iran and Iraq and maintains relations in the U.S. in order to secure financial aid and military technology. These relations are enhanced by corporations, lobbyists and conservative think tanks who share a mutual interest in geo-political advantage in the Middle East as well as making some big money.

These relations are connected between former and present Defense Dept. members, The Project for a New American Century members, AIPAC, MIC Inc., Jack Abramoff, The Livingston Group and others. In other words, the more you dig the bigger the headache you may succumb to, yet you'll get an idea of how intertwined all the players are. Would you like to go for a little ride? Let's start with Hastert.

The House Speaker has received contributions from Turkish sources to the tune of at least $500,000 and Edmonds knows that there are tapes from wiretaps that will back up this claim. One of the groups who bragged on those tapes about these illegal contributions was the American Turkish Council (ATC) but Hastert denies any ties to this or other Turkish groups. Yet between 1996 and 2002, Hastert made multiple trips to Turkey and would return home with so many "gifts" that his support staff was surprised that the "plane even got off the ground."

In turn, Hastert has been very helpful to Turkey by using his authority to pull Congressional backing for a resolution recognizing the Armenian genocide. Hastert, of course has denied this.

On June 3, 2003, Hastert's political action committee held a $1500 a plate fundraiser at Jack Abramoff's restaurant where he received large donations from, among others, one Duane R. Gibson. Gibson is a consultant with the Livingston Group who has been lobbying on behalf of Turkey for about six years at the cost of $1.2 million a year. The only problem is that the money is not coming from the Turkish government and of course the FBI wants to know exactly who is shelling out all the dough. This is what Edmonds refers to as "business as usual" and what is behind the façade in all of this is obviously so threatening, that the government felt it necessary to implement an extraordinary gag order on Sibel and threaten members of her family.

Admittedly, the American – Turkish "connection" doesn't make for glamorous news when put up against Iraq, Iran or North Korea but many of the players in those headlines are also involved with Turkey. And if there was an active, inquisitive and motivated Congress in DeeCeeVille right now then people might recognize the threat that so far remains under the radar.

Sibel stated many times that when certain intelligence regarding illegal activities (drug or illegal arms trafficking etc.) which benefited alleged terrorist sponsors and that same intelligence also implicated "certain allies or business interests" then that intelligence was not passed on to counter-terrorism agents in the field. Turkish front groups under surveillance by the FBI (ATC and ATAA) were making large payments to officials high up in the government as well as lobbyists with connections to some of these same officials. These same groups were also nuzzling up to groups like AIPAC who had a mutual desire to embrace certain business interests that could enhance their pursuit of intelligence, influence and aid against common enemies.

With the rise to power of the neo-conservatives years ago and their drive to secure dominance in the Middle East, these front groups found new opportunities now that the American government was infiltrated with many of their "business partners." Douglass Feith and Richard Perle (PNAC), infamous for their push into Iraq, were also recipients of hundreds of thousands of dollars from Turkish interests prior to joining the Bush Gang.

Other groups with long ties to Turkey as well as upper offices in the government consist of the aforementioned Livingston Group, Solarz & Associates, and The Cohen Group. All three are top members of the American Turkish Council with Vice Chairman of The Cohen Group, Joseph Ralston, sitting on their board of advisors. Getting pretty tangled up, huh?

One other firm I want to point out is the neo-con group, M.I.C. Industries Inc. who boast of some "Ultimate Building Machine" on their web site (it was worth a $60 million contract with Russia back in '97). Their board consists of amongst others, William Cohen (Cohen Group/ATC) and Richard Armitage (PNAC/Valerie Plame outing) and is headed up by one Michael Ansari who once teamed up with Alexander Haig in a corporation called US-CIS Venture Inc. which was established to assist in "developments" in Central Asia as well as establishing oil and gas pipeline projects through the region. M.I.C. Inc. is also one of the Livingston Group's top clients.

These are some of the "business interests" I believe Edmonds' was speaking of and here's why.

Enormous amounts of money are being funneled to top government officials and certain businesses whose members consist of former Defense Dept. officials, State Dept. officials and conservative think tanks that have a common interest in Turkey and Israel (in this case) and other countries that play a strategic part in a geo-political "business" plan. However, this money is not coming from those particular governments in question.

Currently, according to former CIA agent Philip Giraldi, there is an investigation into Israel's illegal sale of U.S. military technology to countries like China and India. The companies mentioned in this article also have ties to the defense industry through their members' history in government service – who also share close ties with Turkish front groups (as well as an alliance with AIPAC and JINSA) currently under investigation by the FBI. That these Turkish groups would be involved in the same illegal sales with the aid of the aforementioned businesses is not that difficult of a dot to connect as it definitely reflects the "can of worms" that Edmonds' superiors at the FBI did not want opened. It's also worth mentioning that Turkey is a large hub in the drugs coming out of Afghanistan and Edmonds has alluded to the drug trade in her past statements.

Yet, fellow FBI translator Malek Can Dickerson, who had encouraged Sibel to join the ATC, was suppressing intelligence Edmonds was uncovering regarding these front groups and their relationship to "certain allies and American business interests" in deference to the very organizations that the FBI had under investigation.

One can look back at the names mentioned in this criminal activity and notice that many of the players were involved in the more glamorous stories in the news over the past years. Armitage (MIC Inc./PNAC) leaking the name of a CIA operative who was investigating arms trafficking to Iran and Feith and Perle (IA Inc./PNAC) who were instrumental in the invasion of Iraq and who are pushing for an attack on Iran are just three of the most notorious examples.

One other thing I want to point out is the sorry state of affairs when it comes to the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) Unit database which is maintained by the Dept. of Justice. This database contains the "who and how much" when it comes to "foreign investment" in exchange for representation in DeeCeeVille.

Luke Ryland (wotisitgood4.blogspot.com), who has done some remarkable and detailed work on the Edmonds story, pointed out on his blog that the "huge database that serves as the public's lone window on lobbying activities by foreign governments has been allowed to decay to a point they cannot even make a copy of its contents" according to a report by the Center for Public Integrity in June of '04. Even worse, as far as we know, that system is still operating on Windows 95. So much for investing in technology to fight the "war on terror."

Sibel stated in an interview back in late '05 that "You can start from the AIPAC angle. You can start from the Plame case. You can start from my case. They all end up going to the same place, and they revolve around the same nucleus of people. There may be a lot of them, but it is one group. And they are very dangerous for all of us."

I can't think of a better reason to take back the Congress.

Source: http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/opedn...

Sibel Edmonds was born in Turkey. You can find more info on the US-Turkish "underground" activities, which obviously relates to the Turkish bribes of US officials when it comes to denying the AG...on youtube and in other sources.

Yes Suzy, we understand clearly. When the Armenians agitate for the forgone conclusion of "genocide", spending billions of dollars, circumventing judicial systems and instead pressuring legislators in countries worldwide it's all in the name of "peace, justice and the Armenian Way". But when the Turkish government stands up and defends itself against all this intrigue and deceit it's nothing but corruption ...right?

It was clear enough to me when I read in "zicli's" post: "...your grandparents, some of whom murdered my grandparents, grand aunts, grand uncles relentlessly" that the context and usage was metaphorical and I would expect that a University Student - especially one pursuing an advanced degree would understand it that way also.

Readers of this forum will have to read Suzy's comments and judge for themselves if ethnic hatred is present in her posts. For me the answer is as clear as day. The Armenians of Eastern Anatolia came here almost a century ago in large numbers - refugees from an area that saw some of the most dreadful conflicts of the "Great War" (WW1). Some of them managed to get on with their lives. Others had emotional baggage - unqenched hatreds which they have institutionalized and passed down to their descendants. War is really a terrible thing; it's not all courage and glory as some would have us believe. The problem with the Armenian side in this argument is that it amounts to tunnel vision. They say "Look what happened to my grandparents and my relatives" and refuse do acknowledge the atmosphere in which these terrible events occurred and the seriousness of the provocation. World War 1 has never ended for them.

To Suzy,

I felt very sorry to hear the tragedy suffered by your own grandparents which have great similarity with those our grandparents experienced.

I did not mean that your own grandfathers individually killed mine. I present the following excepts just to tell you about the other side of the picture which you deny to look at:

-In Van, Çarıkser Village, a child was bayoneted and was cooked on fire as if he were a lamb.
-In Van, Ahtucu Village, the six-month old baby of a woman Zeliha, was thrown into the oven (tandır) by the Armenians while she was baking bread. Then the woman was ordered to eat her baby! When she rejected, her right leg was forced into the oven and burned (Telegram of Van Gendarme Troop Commander Ali Vasıf [11 May 1916].

- In Trabzon, the massacred Muslim folk were filled into wells and the bodies of people whose arms and legs had been plucked were thrown into the gardens. The mosques were defacated and even the fruit trees were violated (Telegram of Captain Ahmet Refik, 1 May, 1918).

- In Muş, the women were forced to stand naked and in position of performing the ‘namaz’ (ritual worship of Muslims). The Armenians mocked and told that they would conduct the Muslims to perform the namaz in this position while violating the women (Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Harekat-ı İhtilaliyesi 319-21).

-In the Eastern Anatolia, it had become usual to see dead Muslims of all ages whose bodies had been destroyed, with heaps of cut up legs, arms, heads, noses around. The bodies of women displayed overt signs of violation by force. Russian Lieutenant Colonel Griyaznof reported that gun rockets were installed into the vaginas of women bodies.

-The Turks who had been slaughtered like animals were buried in large holes in the Eastern Anatolia (Lieutenant Colonel Twerdo-Khlebof. I wittnessed and I Lived Through Erzurum, 1917-1918. www.tsk.mil.tr/ermeni_sorunu/arsiv_belge...). (Ahmet Refik Altınay. İki Komite ve İki Kıtal. İstanbul, 1919;p.71-72). Alive children were also filled in these holes (Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve harekat-ı İhtilaliyesi, p 321-23).

-The Armenians blinded 15 000 Turkish soldiers and burned their skin by forcing them into so-called ‘disinfection pools’ with excessive crizole, in 1918, in the prisoner camp of Alexandropol, Egypt, in cooperation with the